The Thing We Never Talk About

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: So Serena,
I end every conversation with a

question for my guest, and this
is, uh, we're gonna circle back to

what you asked me at the beginning.

You wondered if I could share
some ideas about setting goals

in life and trying to engage more
enthusiastically with your finances.

And you wrote, "I feel a lot
of ambivalence in this area.

I wish there was a way to make it more
sparkly for myself so that I would do it."

Timothy Iseler: welcome to
The Thing We Never Talk About.

My name is Tim Iseler.

I'm a certified financial planner, and I
run my own independent financial advisory

business, helping musicians, artists,
and other people with weird jobs make

smarter decisions with their money.

You can learn more at iselerfinancial.com.

If you have a question about money or
personal finance, please send it to me

by visiting iselerfinancial.com/podcast,

and I will answer it in a future episode.

And if you enjoy this podcast,
please share it with a friend.

After that, you can like and
subscribe to the show wherever

you're listening to it right now

Today I'm speaking with Serena Lander,
a self-employed artist and tattoo

artist based in Chicago, Illinois.

Serena has been tattooing since she
was 19 years old, when she was one

of only a handful of women in that
industry in all of North America,

and has spent her entire adult life
building a practice on her own terms.

In addition to her tattooing work,
Serena also owns a multi-unit property

in Chicago's West Side that has become an
important source of financial stability

for her, and she recently began the
process of adding solar panels to her

home through a state-subsidized program.

I've known Serena for about 25 years,
and it was really great to catch

up with her and hear how she thinks
about balancing her creative life

with the demands of earning money.

You can see some of Serena's work
on Instagram tattoosbyserena, and

Serena is spelled S-E-R-E-N-A.

Or you can visit her
website, tattoosbyserena.com.

So thank you for being here, and
please enjoy this conversation

with tattoo artist Serena Lander.

Serena Lander: Good afternoon.

Nice to see you, Tim

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Nice to see you too.

How are you?

Serena Lander: Oh, not bad.

had kind of a busy morning just
running some errands and, getting

things done before it got warm.

So,

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Oh yeah

Serena Lander: yeah, I've been
enjoying listening to your podcast.

It's actually really fascinating as an
artist to listen to other artists talk

about how they perceive the flow of
currency in their lives, 'cause it's, it's

complicated when it comes to artwork and
the value of being able to maintain one's

own practice instead of, like, becoming
a greeter at, know, Costco or something.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah.

Well, that was my goal, to be able
to have conversations in a way where

other people could hear them because
the, you know, the title of my show

is The Thing We Never Talk About.

It's like it's, it's secret, and not only
do people not talk in their community,

but often they don't even talk in their
own family about any of this stuff.

So just being able to have these
conversations in a way where it's also not

like nobody needs to share their account
balance or, you know, we don't need to

talk about numbers or anything like that.

Just, like, how do you live with money?

And, and I think that's a valuable…

I think it's valuable to do that even if
it just helps people not feel so alone.

Serena Lander: Yeah.

Yeah.

I've found I'm, like, maybe
somebody who's kind of avoidant.

Like, I'll do bookkeeping once a
year for taxes, and then I just

don't look at it, and I have a vague
understanding of how much money I

have, and I try not to, you know, I
always try to stay within my means.

but it's, it's really, uh, it's a strange
thing with creating artwork because

I find when I've, at times when I've
been really busy in this way that looks

like success, it's really soul-sucking.

And then you have to spend a lot of
money to, like, recover, you know?

Like, you're like, "I need, I need
treats and things, and, you know,

I need comfort, and I don't have
a lot of time, so it's whatever I

can buy 'cause I don't have time."

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah,
that is definitely a line

that I'm walking right now.

Uh, I was pretty good when I started
this new business about putting

boundaries around certain things.

Like, I didn't wanna have to
check my email on the weekend.

I didn't wanna have to, you
know, after dinner go back to

work or anything like that.

So I've put boundaries around it in
that way, but I have found this year

in particular that, as the business
grows, I'm just working more hours,

which is not what I wanted, you know?

So it's, it's, it's a hard thing, like you
said, when you're-- you have these things

that look like success, but then you find
that you're not-- your life is not as

comfortable or as, uh, rich necessarily.

Serena Lander: Yeah, it becomes really
one-dimensional, and then the artwork

can become a product and not actually…

It doesn't feel like the love is in
it when there's too much, when the-

yeah, when there's too much business.

And so it- there's something valuable
about, like, being in that sweet spot

of, like, not, not being too busy,
not being too successful, 'cause with

success comes the, the discomfort
of, like, of just like, yeah, lack

of human time and all of the things
that are required to create artwork.

So I can imagine, so you are doing
this podcast, so that's probably

the creative side of your, uh, of
your business, and then you're doing

the financial planning as well.

Like, is that how it is for you?

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: It, it really kind
of blends technical and human skills.

And, and that fits nicely with my old
career, which as an audio engineer,

I was doing a technical job, but you
also have to learn how to work with

people and notice when people are
stressed out or notice when people

are excited and, and kind of keep
everybody pointed in the right direction.

So the part of my business that I like
the best is when I get to talk to people.

So that's, that's this podcast, but that's
also when I work with clients, like being

able to talk with people and help them
feel like something that seemed really

stressful or maybe too big for them to,
to manage is somehow approachable or

some- something that they can take on.

So that feels really great to me.

The technical side of it, sometimes that's
a rewarding challenge in the same way

that sometimes the technical skill to make
a record can be a rewarding challenge.

But other times it's like the
part of the job I do so that I

can do the fun part of my job.

Serena Lander: I wonder, it might have
been in a earlier podcast that I didn't

get to listen to yet, 'cause I on- I've
only listened to a handful of them.

How did you make the leap from
doing sound and then going into,

um, being a financial advisor?

That's a pretty broad gap.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah, it
was a really, really hard pivot.

As you know, I started working in
recording studios, and then I was

touring with bands for many years,
and I had been getting this feeling

that the advancement within that
career was not making me happier.

Like, I was working with bigger
bands, making more money, and I

just, I- something was missing.

Something that I used to like was missing.

And I searched around for a few
years trying to figure out, like,

what if I worked with smaller bands?

What if I did, instead of doing
sound, what if I did tour managing?

And I tried different things to see
where I could fit in, and in the end,

I just kind of got burnt out on it.

It wasn't, it just wasn't rewarding for
me in the way that it was originally.

And I ca- I knew I wanted something else,
and I came upon this idea that, because

of my own lived experience of having a
job with very unpredictable income and

learning how to manage that and learning
how to, you know, get into debt, get

out of debt, how much I needed to keep
in a savings account, just learning all

these things and learning how to invest,
I thought, "Here's a, here's a skill

set that I have that I know people in my
industry need this kind of information.

They need this kind of help."

And in the world that I was in, which was
mostly like indie rock, punk rock kind

of, you know, kind of a world, worst thing
you could talk about was your money or,

or saying that you cared about how much
money you made or anything like that.

It was like nobody wanted to talk
about it, and yet I knew that

people needed that kind of help.

So in 2019, I did a study program so
that I could get licensed to operate

the kind of business I operate,
and I launched it around this time,

actually, around this time in 2019.

And then after that, I did the coursework
to become a certified financial planner.

So it was a really super hard break
from one lifestyle to another lifestyle,

but I wanted that and I wanted a
career where I felt like I was helping

people more than just, "I'll work
from you, you know, work for you from

this date to this date, and then maybe
we'll never see each other again."

So it w- there's no…

there wasn't, like, a natural path.

It just was something I knew I
needed a, I need, I knew I needed

a change, and this seemed like
a change that could help people.

Serena Lander: I think in the punk
rock and alternative music scene, there

definitely is a need to change the
narrative around money because I feel

like there is so much, like, perception
or projection that money is like, you

know, kind of part of like the system and
the dominant power structure and like,

how to do a workaround so you don't have
to participate, but then we all get old,

and we're like , "Oh, shit, I should've
been like participating on some level

'cause I like have such an aversion now."

Like, that's what I need.

I need to change the narrative internally
so that I can like, change my value

system around money because I just, I
feel like so avoidant that I feel like,

as I get old, that it's a bad idea to
continue thinking about it that way.

Like, so I, I've had some
conversations with friends.

Most of the people I meet are
through tattooing them, so

I meet all kinds of people.

but this one client of mine, she was going
to school to become a hypnotherapist, and,

um, she was talking about this thing that
one of her professors talks about called

an energy bank that you like, you put a
dollar value, whatever your hourly rate

is, on an activity, the, of something
that you're trying to grow for yourself.

And this is all just like,
money that doesn't exist.

It's like fantasy dollars, right?

So every time you do something
that is like about growing that

project or that like, that thing
that you're trying to get to, you

write in a ledger, you know, however
many hours times like $200 an hour.

And then you see yourself like growing
this massive like energetic bank

account of like, you know, all the…

It's not, you know, it's not
money you can spend, but there's

like value in it, you know?

So you're assigning value to
these positive things that

you're doing for yourself to
like grow in whatever direction.

So it's hard when it's actually
about money, that it's like I might

need to pay myself to like do my own
bookkeeping, you know, to just like…

I, I could pay someone else, but like
I h- I end up doing a lot of things

myself because being self-employed,
it's a better deal if I do it.

Even though it's maybe I'm not,
I'm not giving myself the best

deal 'cause I'm not good at it

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Mhm

Serena Lander: missing things.

So I, yeah, I've been like interested
in changing the narrative and,

and just trying to find ways to
like re-engage and not dislike

the whole monetary system so much.

I recently I have a new thing
that's happening in my home.

I own a house, um, on the west side
of Chicago and, and there's a program

but from Illinois Solar for All and
Illinois Shines to get these, like, state

subsidized solar panels on my house,
and I have to pay into it, and it's…

I have to replace half
of my roof, my roof.

I don't h- want to replace the
whole roof because there's…

it's not ready to be replaced.

Like, it still has another 10 years
maybe, and there's, um, skylights on

one side of the roof, so I don't wanna
throw all that stuff in the garbage.

And so it's, like, this weird, this
weird thing that's happening of like,

"Oh, if I was to replace more than
half the roof, like, then it creates

all this waste," and then it's kind of
like the antithesis of, like, doing the

good thing, which is the solar panels.

But so I'm just gonna replace half
the roof, and I'm gonna get solar

panels, and it's, like, you know,
down the road it's supposed to be,

you know, $50,000 that I don't have
to earn to pay for energy costs.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah

Serena Lander: so that is, is meaningful
to me because it's like, oh, that's,

like, work that I don't have to do to,
like, create that money to, like, you

know, to pay those bills down the road.

So that feels like a good, a
good financial decision that I'm

actually taking an interest in it.

trying to find ways, but maybe
you have some recommendations

of how to get excited.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Well, we'll,
we'll talk about that a little more,

but before we do, my standard first
question for everyone is, what do

you tell people you do for a living?

Serena Lander: sometimes
I say I'm an artist.

Sometimes I say I'm a tattoo artist.

Sometimes I say self-employed.

I feel like most of the time
when I get asked, it, it's on

like an ActBlue donation form,

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah

Serena Lander: and I'm like,
"Artist, self-employed."

But I don't feel like that many
people ask me because if they reach

out to me, it's always for a tattoo.

So, more and more I'm, I
don't run into strangers.

but I think I just say I'm
an artist or tattoo artist.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: when was the
last time you worked for someone else?

Serena Lander: so I started
tattooing at 19, and before that,

I was working in restaurants, and
I loved working in restaurants.

I loved- I was cooking.

I loved cooking.

and but I had a really neurotic boss,
and so, like, the environment in

that kitchen was a little bit toxic.

And then, at, like, 20 years
old or alm- maybe I was almost

21, I was like, "You know what?

I'm never gonna work
in a restaurant again."

And I'd already started tattooing, but the
trick was at that time, and still is, is

always to live with a lot of roommates,

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Ah

Serena Lander: have, like, low overhead.

So I, I did that, and I was, like,
working in restaurants, and then I quit

working in restaurants, and I just decided
that I was gonna do whatever it took

to just pay my bills with tattooing.

And, um, I was very fortunate because,
in, like, 1989 and 1990, '91, there

just weren't that many women tattooing.

Like, I think there might've been
five or six in all of North America,

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Wow

Serena Lander: and I was one of them
. And so people were like, "Yeah, I

want a tattoo, but I'm afraid of the,
you know, toxic masculinity culture."

You know, as was I.

I was kind of afraid to walk into a
tattoo shop and, you know, be bullied

into getting something I didn't
really want or couldn't have really a

conversation with somebody because they,
you know, saw me as a child, so yeah.

So when I started tattooing, there was
a lot of people who were interested in,

you know, getting tattooed by someone
that they weren't intimidated by.

And in British Columbia, like, the only
people who were tattooing were, like,

biker tattooists and military tattooists,
so lots of, like, military insignias

and, um, and then biker-related stuff.

But it wasn't, wasn't really artistic.

so there was a, there was a publication
that a lot of people my age might remember

called Research Magazine, and they did an
edition that was called Modern Primitives.

And in that issue, it was just all
artistic body art and stuff that was,

like, really beautiful, and I don't
think anyone had ever seen it before.

I certainly hadn't.

And, so it kind- as somebody who was
always artistic, I I just really wanted

to try it and to learn the medium.

and I wanted tattoos, but I didn't
know, like, what I wanted or anything.

I just wanted to try it.

So, that's how it started and, and then,
you know, there was, like, a growing

curiosity at that time for people who
wanted to get tattoos and, you know,

everyone our age in the early '90s, their,
of course, their parents were horrified.

Mother was horrified.

She just wouldn't even say the word
tattoo for, like, 23 years in front of me.

She just wouldn't even say it 'cause
she didn't want … She, I don't

know, she didn't wanna encourage me.

That's how, that's how that started.

I don't know if that
answers your question.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah, yeah, it does.

It does.

I hadn't thought about that in a long
time, but I've maybe only been to three,

like, stereotypical tattoo shops ever.

And, and it's all guys, and it's all
kind of like, you know, if, if they

weren't doing tattoos, they would
be like, you know, like sport bros.

You know?

The-- it's like the same kind of
aggressive culture, except it's

about tattoos and rockabilly
instead of football or whatever.

And, and it's totally true: getting
tattooed by a woman or getting tattooed

by, you know, a non-binary person, it's
just a very, very, very different, more

comfortable, less pressured situation.

Serena Lander: Yeah, I, when I came
back to Chicago in 2010, 'cause I moved

away back to the Pacific Northwest
for seven years, but I was coming

back to Chicago to do tattoos, and
then I was doing some landscaping

there, which I loved landscaping.

I, I still love gardening
and doing all that work.

It's really fun.

and when I came back to Chicago,
I worked in a tattoo studio just

as a guest artist for a few weeks
just to kinda get my bearings.

And I hadn't done that before.

and it was so rattling every day
'cause they had fluorescent lights

and, like, doom metal all day long
and constant banter, and everyone

was, like, swearing all the time.

And like, you know, it was, like, real
active and chatty and joyful, but it…

I, every day, I would just be, like,
exhausted by that, just energetically.

It, it wasn't for me.

yeah, it was, I was really grateful when,
like, things st- when I had moved back

to town and things, like, started to flow
a little bit more in my own business,

that I didn't have to deal with all that
noise and that, like, ugh kind of energy.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah

Serena Lander: That was just, like,
every day, you know, that's what it was.

Like, the, the clientele and, um, some of
the artists, it was, like, very masculine.

So yeah, it was, uh, a funny experience.

Um, and it w- I got to see, like,
oh, great, like, I did make the right

choice, like, working alone and not
being part of that tattoo culture.

Uh, 'cause it's not…

Even though I do the medium, I
don't feel like that is my culture.

it's, it's just, uh, it's
just it's so very competitive.

I don't know that that's a
good way for art to evolve.

And these days, there's so many
good artists tattooing, and the

art form is really evolving in an
artistic way, and it's fantastic.

But I don't think it's happening
necessarily because of that type of

street shop culture . I think the
street shop tattoo culture is very,

I don't know, it's just like, it's,
it's kind of like regressive in a way.

I, like I feel like sometimes it just
replays these themes that are kind of

like angry and traumatic and stuff.

Like, not always.

Not always.

It's like moving away from that.

But for a long time, it was
like a lot of really dark stuff.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: When I first
met you, tattoos were still sort

of a fringe thing, and, and it,
you know, you were kind of…

If you had a tattoo that was visible
with a short-sleeve shirt, you were

kind of asserting like, "I'm not part
of the mainstream culture," right?

And obviously, that's all changed
and, you know, tattoos are so

much more widely accepted now.

But then as you just mentioned social
media a second ago, there's also been

this way for artists to showcase their
work and reach so many more people

than they ever could have before.

How have you navigated that change, or how
has that change impacted your business?

Serena Lander: I think it's, I think
it's been really helpful because when I

was younger, I would go out a lot and,
you know, go to bars and shows and like

these days I like to go to bed early.

I don't drink alcohol.

Like, it's just kind of exhausting.

and so it's good that Instagram
is there that I can like post,

have a portfolio on there.

But I don't like being dependent
on, like, I don't really like

being dependent on social media.

I do feel like people still get to
me via word of mouth, but the word

of mouth is social media w- within
their friend groups, you know?

So it is really good.

But I, I have mixed feelings about,
you know, be tethered to social media.

in general, I think it's like
destroying our human relationships,

and I hate that about it.

so it's, yeah, kind of love hate.

And anytime I have the opportunity to
see a friend in person, like I'm there.

Like I don't wanna, I don't wanna
have relationships on social media

at all, but it, it is good to
have a portfolio up there that, so

that people see that I'm working.

But yeah, it's, it's kind of a mixed bag.

I feel like we all got really trained in
the pandemic to just be so reliant on it.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah.

One thing that I think about social
media that I, I think if you have a

business and you're treating it as like
this is a form of marketing for me,

like, that totally makes sense, right?

Like, you can show your portfolio
to, you know, essentially the entire

world in a way that you never could
before, and that makes a lot of sense.

But I think one thing it did is turn
everybody into their own brand, whether

they think about it that way or not.

Like, everybody's thinking about
how they present themselves and what

does that tell the world about me?

And, and I think it's totally fine
for businesses to think on those terms

and say, you know, whatever, you, you
want people to hire you to do work.

That's one way to get people
to hire you to do work.

But when it's just sharing your own life
in a way where you're sort of curating

what people think about you, I think
that part is extremely, It's extremely

addictive, but it's also extremely
unhealthy to spend your time imagining

or, or tailoring what you do so that other
people will give you positive affirmation.

It's just a terrible lesson for everyone.

Serena Lander: Yeah, it is so controlling,
but maybe there's good things.

I'm, I'm concerned that it's just breeding
like a whole culture of narcissism.

And, and I think that in, you know, the
arts community, like we, I don't know

if we can stand more of it, you know,
'cause we, like, ha- you kinda have to

be a little bit in that way to be, to
be so fixated on, like, an art practice.

I don't know if it's narcissistic.

Maybe it's more like disassociative, that
you're just, like, able to, like, really,

you know, go into, like, into that space
and, you know, be in the art hole and

not come out until it's time to eat again
or whatever . yeah, but when it's…

yeah, when it is sort of like, "Well,
and this is my product, and, you

know, like, I am a product that,
that I'm constantly marketing on

Instagram," it, it feels empty.

It feels like it des-
destroys artwork somehow

And so many of my friends,
too, are makers of things.

And then, you know, like, the product
comes first, it goes up on the page,

and then, like, you know, hopefully you
get to see people once in a while to

actually hear what, what's real, what's
in their, going on in their lives opposed

to just, like, how productive they are.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah.

I don't know if this is wishful thinking
on my part, but I think I've found that

the value…

Maybe value's not even the right word.

The experience of being on social
media has become less and less

rewarding to me, and there's the,
there's the addictive nature of it,

whether it's the endless scroll.

But what I've found, especially for
maybe the last year or two, is if

I'm going through it, it's probably
like two posts out of five are

people that I actually know, and
the rest are boosted content or ads.

And that's not a good ratio to have to
watch three things you don't care about

to see one thing you do care about.

That's just not a good service at all.

And so I do kind of hope that
people are just getting sick of it.

I don't know that that is happening, but
that's certainly my experience, that,

you know, it's, it's not about a way
to discover cool things I like or a way

to keep up with people I care about,
it's just, like, being fed, uh, you

know, sponsored content all the time.

Serena Lander: Yeah, I think mine, I
think my Instagram feed is even worse.

I think I get, like, maybe 1 out of 10
will be someone I know, maybe even less.

Like, I, I get hit so hard with
political spam and then the trauma of

war spam, yeah, and then I get a bunch
of, um, Tai Chi videos that I really

like, and then, and then hopefully I'll
see a friend's post once in a while.

But it seems really rare.

And I can imagine, like, when I
put up photos that's, like, very

few of the people I know see them.

If, like, I, I, I tend to become fatigued
after, like, just looking at, like, 5

or 10 posts and then I'm out of there.

I can't really look at
social media anymore

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: I agree completely.

How do you decide how
much to charge people?

Serena Lander: Well, I charge by the hour.

a friend of mine who's in fashion
who was living in New York for a long

time, maybe a decade ago, she gave me
a talking to because for a long time

I didn't charge for my drawing time.

And I would draw artwork for people,
and then they'd be like, "Um, no,

that's not what I had in mind."

And, um, you know, even after
having a consultation with them.

And it would always be like, ugh, 'cause
it was my f- my time, my free time.

So yeah, just in the last 10
years I've started draw…

I've been charging for the drawing time
and, um, and then I wrap that into,

like, charging for being, like, con-
like, including the stenciling time

at the beginning of the appointment,
and then I start charging by the

hour when I actually break skin.

Um, so all of, like, the fussing around
at the beginning of an appointment

and moving a stencil here and there,
making different sizes and, you know,

that's all part of the design fee,
which is basically one hour of work, so.

But yeah, it's hard, you know, it's really
hard with all of this inflation, um, and

the economy, economy being so bonkers,
it's really hard to raise my rates.

I, like, I f- feel like people are,
they don't have the disposable income

or maybe they don't have, like, consumer
confidence right now because everything's

so expensive and the economy's bonkers.

So, I have a, ev- any time I have to raise
my rates I have a really hard time doing

it and so I try not to do it very often.

but then I'll go to, like, the vet, you
know, and I'll be w- in there for, like,

12 minutes and it'll be, like, $600.

Wow, I should raise my rates.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®:
it's a really hard thing.

I think a lot of creative people
struggle with that, where you

don't wanna overcharge people.

And, like, nobody wants to charge so much
that they don't have any clients, but at a

certain point, y- you know, you mentioned
inflation, like, everything's more

expensive for everyone, including you.

So at some point you have to, just
to keep up with your own stuff…

it's-- We're going through a unique
time, well, at least in my lifetime

anyway, where it feels like it hasn't
let up basically, uh, you know, in

like, let's say five years, this
feeling of like, everything's too

expensive, it just hasn't let up at all.

And, it's hard to know how much of that
is tied into my perception of the politics

right now and how much of that is actually
tied into the numbers, but there's

this feeling like it's unrelenting, and
there's no sign that anybody who could

change that cares about changing that.

Serena Lander: Yeah.

I, I think that I noticed when the
war in Ukraine started, I belong

to the local food co-op, The Dill
Pickle, and I remember being able

to buy pumpkin seeds for $3.30

a pound, and they jumped up during
the war in Ukraine, which is still

going on, to almost $11 a pound.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Wow.

Serena Lander: And I was
just like, "I didn't…

where do pumpkin seeds come from?

I thought they came from the Midwest.

I don't kn- why are they so expensive?

Like, this is crazy."

I don't know the answer to that.

I don't know where they come from,
but, like, yeah, when things just,

like, increase exponentially,
it, like, really changes people's

value systems around, yeah, what
they're willing to spend money on.

And I don't mind, actually,
because I, I got really lucky.

Like, during the pandemic, I got a
studio mate, and that helped me so much.

He also tattoos, Jared Metzner.

He's a great tattooist
and really good artist.

So it changed my relationship with work
because I couldn't, like, I couldn't just

be at work anytime somebody was like,
"Hey, can you do this thing for me?"

And so it gave me some, like,
boundaries with work that I

didn't have my entire career.

Like, before that, I wouldn't even
take a scheduled day off, ever.

I would just have days off if I
didn't happen to have something

to do at work, you know?

And so now, like, so now I share overhead
in my studio, which is wonderful.

And I'm only there seven days on,
and then, and then he's there, so,

like, seven days on, seven days off.

And yeah, we, we rarely cross paths,
but it's been just a really great model

for not just be- being s- so immersed in
my industry because it ebbs and flows.

I remember when I was, like, really
immersed in it and the economy

would dip, like, during the Gulf
War, you know, and during the,

the financial collapse in 2008.

Like, I've been through
a few r- recessions.

I think my whole childhood in Canada
in the '70s was a recession up there.

So I kind of feel like there would be
this thing that would happen in my mind

that, like, that would be this, like,
anxiety narrative, that was just torture.

And now, like, I feel like because
I don't force myself to be in that

realm- Like, every, every day that's
possible, like, I have, um, kind

of an energetic boundary around it.

It's, I'm just n- not so
immersed in, like, the success

or failure of my business.

And I'm also very lucky because, um, in
2011, when at the bottom of the market,

me and my boyfriend at the time were able
to buy a house, like a really inexpensive

house and that was amazing because now
I have, I've kind of subdivided the

house into, like, little, like, it's a,
it's a bungalow and, um, with the help

of a friend who's a contractor, I've
made it into, like, three apartments.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Hmm

Serena Lander: and it's great
because it's, you know, having

three dwelling units that are
kind of self-contained, that are

affordable for some friends of mine…

and the h- the property also
had a coach house too, so

there's another dwelling unit.

So it's, like, four dwelling
units on the property.

So I didn't know I was gonna
have to rely on that income.

I thought that would be something I
would rely on when I would retire.

but I'm so grateful it actually pays
for the mortgage and I can, then I can

just, like, have, like, be a bit of an
underachiever when it comes to tattooing.

So kind of like letting go of that
attachment of, like, that tattooing is

gonna be the thing that pays the bills,
cause it's, yeah, it's just, uh…

in the, in the other recessions
that we had, we didn't have

this massive inflation.

like, during the Gulf War and, and
in, like, between 2008, 2012, like,

things were still relatively cheap, you
know ? But now it's, like, so crazy.

So, So yeah, I, I f- I feel like, It's
not like having four roommates but

it's, but yeah, more communal living has
been, it's kinda saved my ass this time.

and I think it has in the
past too, but things were just

more affordable in general.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah.

So you've already mentioned that the idea
of for y- you know, for your work, for

your business, the idea of just making
more money is not your idea of success.

As you think about where you are right
now and maybe what you would imagine

going forward, like, what's your, like,
everything works out version of your work?

Serena Lander: well, I think I've realized
that even working at the level I'm working

at is better than going and finding a
job, because I have, like, freedom over

my time and flexibility over my time.

For me, I just feel like I don't know who
would ever hire me for anything ' cause

I've just been tattooing for so long and
doing this particular industry that I just

don't know what else I could possibly do.

So yeah, I'm, I'm gonna s- I'm gonna
stick with it and just, yeah, keep

my expenses as low as possible.

But it is something I'm proud of.

It is a, a bit of a
superpower that I have.

frugality is something I've
always been really good at.

but sometimes I realize, you know,
going out and doing things that are

fun, that cost money can actually
really, um, feed into, like, the

opportunity to do new projects.

Like, there was a music festival
that I was thinking about going

to, and then I was like, "Oh, no.

Well, what if I bought a ticket and then
I lamed out 'cause I was too tired?"

And, and then part of me is like, well,
actually, if I went and I didn't lame

out, and I was around a bunch of people
who were excited about music, like, that

could be really, you know, affirming.

You know?

I could see people that I know.

I could…

You never know, like, maybe, like,
I would run into people who are

old clients of mine who are like,
"Oh, yeah, I wanna do some work."

But yeah, trying to, like, factor
things in that are, like, in-

inspiring and life-affirming
during a recession, and just to be

like, this is, this is important.

It's, like, as important as, like,
maybe not quite as, as important

as oxygen or water, but you know,
like, it's, it's pretty important to,

like, not get isolated just because
I'm, you know, trying to practice

this frugality thing for survival.

And, yeah, I, like, I like surviving,
but I don't, I think that I don't

want to, I don't, I don't want to
limit myself to just surviving and,

you know, being hunker- you know,
hunkered down waiting for a new

president and a new economy to happen.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you mentioned your frugality and
how that's helped you out a lot.

What's something that other people would
think of as frugal that to you is, is no

trouble at all, or maybe even enjoyable?

Serena Lander: Well, I don't know.

I feel like I l- like I, I like
my life to be pretty s- simple.

I l- like I like simple food.

I like my own cooking, you know?

Like, I…

having, like, routines that just,
yeah, that work for me that are, like,

especially with, like, nutritious food
and having the things I need at home.

I used to love going to restaurants.

I can't really afford that anymore.

These days, restaurants are just
really expensive and I am, I'm

happy that they survive, but I'm…

Part of me feels like that was a
stage in my life or, like, a youthful

thing that, like, wanting to be in
restaurants all the time that I,

I feel like I just grew out of it.

Now I want, like, my simple food.

But yeah, I g- I grow
some food in my garden.

I try to eat everything that I grow.

If I, like, if I buy food,
I try to eat all of it.

I try not to waste food
ever, if I can help it.

And you know, if it does get wasted,
it's in, ends up in the compost so

it's, I still get to, like, you know,
put it on my garden in the spring.

But yeah, I think, yeah, just
having, yeah, definitely low, low

overhead and, and not being wasteful
is something that I practice.

And then, and then I also, like, I'm,
I'm really annoyed by plastics and things

that so much food is contained in plastic.

So I've noticed myself not wanting
to buy something if it's got

a plastic container around it.

So that keeps things even, even
more simple 'cause these days

there's just so much packaging.

But it's a whole, it's a whole mess
of products that I can just avoid,

and not clutter up my life with.

So I don't know if that's related to
frugality or if it's just simplicity.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: I mean, I think
that does answer the question because

wanting your life to be simpler or even,
say, wanting a minimalist aesthetic

sort of de facto you, you participate
less in consumerism just by doing that.

So, you know, it is-- it ends up being
frugal, but it's also just what you enjoy.

Serena Lander: and it might be something
that happens to people once they've

had, you know, five decades on this
planet , that there isn't anything

that they haven't already had in their
possession at some point in their life,

and like, well, if I've already owned it
and I gave it away to a thrift store or

whatever, like I don't wanna buy it again.

Like maybe I would borrow it, but like
that, that's, I feel like that consumer

period seems to happen with people
up until the age of like 35 or 40.

I hope that for the rest of us
that we age out of that need to

constantly being, you know, be
filling our lives with, with crap.

Maybe cut down on the demand
for unnecessary things.

But I'm not sure.

That's just a theory I have.

I, I just imagine that people
like kinda grow out of it.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®:
I think some people do.

I think a lot of people carry
on that treadmill forever

and never really get ahead.

So like, you know, just an, a very common
example is like people now when they

buy a house, it's sort of like, "This
is my house for the next five years, and

then it'll go up in value and I'll sell
it and I'll buy a bigger, nicer house."

You know?

And, and I think a lot of people
think that way about owning a home.

It's like, "I'll have this five
to seven years, and then I'll

get something bigger and nicer."

And I don't begrudge anyone wanting nicer
things or whatever, but that cycle means

that you're just alway- there's just
always more pressure to earn more money to

support the extra money you're spending,
as opposed to like, sticking with the

real estate example, like, if my math
is right, you're probably about halfway

through your mortgage, so in about, you
know, 15 more years, like your cost of

living is gonna drop off a cliff, right?

So it's like you don't get a bigger, nicer
house, but you get this kind of back to

that idea of the, uh, almost like the
energetic balance sheet, it's like the…

You don't get the money, but you
don't spend the money, and so you end

up having a, a much more flexibility
in your life just by virtue of like

you don't have to spend as much.

Serena Lander: And yeah, and you don't
have to work as much to save the money.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah, yeah.

So Serena, I end every conversation
with a question for my guest, and this

is, uh, we're gonna circle back to
what you asked me at the beginning.

You wondered if I could share
some ideas about setting goals

in life and trying to engage more
enthusiastically with your finances.

And you wrote, "I feel a lot
of ambivalence in this area.

I wish there was a way to make it more
sparkly for myself so that I would do it."

Before I share any ideas, is there
anything you wanna add or any

context you wanna share for that?

Serena Lander: Yeah, I, I know some
people have like a natural love of money

and math and I don't ever want to like
love money but maybe I could love math.

Maybe there's, maybe there's
a narrative that would like

change how, how I'm looking at.

And I mean I don't mind if I could
like have more gratitude for a system

that, you know , I can support myself
when I'm old hopefully but it's,

it's just really hard to get excited
about that stuff as a aging person

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah.

The first thing I would say is I don't
think that being excited is necessarily

a prerequisite to making good decisions.

And one example that came to mind that
has nothing to do with money is running.

At different times in my life,
I've been a recreational runner.

I didn't run track in high
school or anything like that.

It's just something I've done
at different times for fitness.

And I don't actually like running at all.

Like, when I'm doing it, I don't like it.

But I like the way I feel after I
do it, and I like the quality of my

life if I'm doing it consistently.

I just feel better
mentally and physically.

And so that, that came to mind as a sort
of a analogy of like, I don't think you

need to be excited about money or be
excited about numbers and math in order

to feel good about making decisions
that make your life easier or better.

one easy example, 'cause you
mentioned your frugality, is like

just living below your means.

You know, that doesn't
require a ton of math.

It's not a complicated concept, you know?

Like living ben- below your means, it's
an easy concept to understand, and there

are times when it might feel not awesome,
but you can understand how it makes your

life better to be able to do that, right?

That's a, that's one easy example.

So I don't think the fact that you
don't, m- you know, get excited

about money or you don't wanna look
at the stock market every day, like

don't worry about that, you know?

Most people don't.

I think most people are happiest when
they, they know that their money's

doing what it's supposed to do, and they
don't have to think about it that much.

So that's the first thing I would say.

I, I don't think that
means just ignore it.

I think it means like do the
things you need to do so you can

f- be pretty confident, like,
"Yep, I'm doing what I should."

I think it could be helpful to, to
frame things in some of the ways

we've been talking about so far.

Um, like for example, we brought up $200
if that's your hourly rate , you know.

If you save $200, that means you
get to take hour off sometime.

Or if, you know, you wanna take a
vacation once a year, you can put a

dollar amount on that and just say
like, "Okay, I'm gonna save this

money because I know what it buys me."

And that's very easy to understand.

When it gets into bigger, longer time
horizon things like retiring or the rest

of your life, those are, that can be
kind of hard to wrap your hands around.

And so I, I don't necessarily
think you need to…

you don't need to worry about
the top of the mountain to

start climbing the mountain.

You know what I mean?

And I think then you can
also take that same idea and

point it at, like, investing.

So if you invest that $200 and you
wait long enough, then it becomes $400,

and if you wait longer, it becomes
$800, and you can take more days off.

So I don't think, I don't think you
necessarily need to be like, "I'm gonna

change my whole lifetime of thinking
about money" to understand why changing

some of your habits would be good.

And I really, really think for most
people, if they're spending less than

they earn, if they're saving a little bit
more than, the bare minimum, if they're

paying down their debt reasonably fast,
and they're investing with the idea that

this money's just gonna grow so that
someday in the future I can use it and

life will be a little easier, I think
that'll get a lot of people most of the

way to where they need to get with money.

You know?

I don't think most people need
to be that much more complicated

with how they think about it.

Does that make sense?

Serena Lander: Yeah, I, I do, I think that
that feeling of, um, of calm when things

are organized, like, that's a good analogy
of, that's related to, like, running.

You do the thing and then you feel,
like, calm and, like, some good

endorphins and, and not having, like,
a, a dirty closet with a bunch of

crap in there that doesn't make sense.

Like, yeah, that I, I feel like just,
yeah, the organization part could

definitely be more satisfying and I'm
trying to just acknowledge, I guess, in my

process that, like, my preferences of not,
of doing things that I like and not doing

things that I don't like gets in the way
of, like, being responsible around money.

And so just acknowledging, like,
I just have to do, like, one

unpleasant thing a day, which might
be, you know, a financial thing.

Oh, like, it's just one unpleasant
thing a day, but it's not that.

It's, it, it doesn't do any harm, it,
for me to do the one unpleasant thing a

day, it's just this, like, um, it's like
this aversion or, like, a preference I

told myself I, I have or I don't have.

So, like, kind of getting past some
of that by just doing it and then

being like, "That wasn't so bad."

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah

Serena Lander: my taxes, I'm
like, "That wasn't so bad.

I got some insight into how
I spent my money last year.

That wasn't so bad."

but my brain thinks I don't like it.

so I have to, like, kind of override
that thinking and, and try to just be

immersed in it a little bit more, like,
regularly, even if it's just, like,

once a week just to experientially
know that I don't not like it.

It's that, you know, that might have been,
like, a more immature version of myself

that wouldn't do anything unpleasant.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: If we stick
with that running analogy, I

think it's okay to not like the
task, but still like the result.

Like for example, you mentioned
like the, uh, if you have a messy

closet or something, you know?

Like having an organized
closet, it feels better.

You open it and you're like,
"Ah, like this is just better."

And if you can do that a few times a year,
each time it's less work than if you only

do it once a year and it's huge and it
takes, you know, all day or several days.

And like the taxes would
be an example of that.

Like once a year, it's a huge unpleasant
task, but if you did it four times a

year, it would be a smaller version of
the same thing, and then you could just

kind of go back to ignoring it, you know?

So like if you, if you get your tax stuff
together in March, then you could say

like, "Okay, every three months," you
know, so like, you know, June, September,

December, "I'm gonna just do a little
bit of this right now so that I don't

have to do the whole thing at the end."

You know?

Just something like that.

Break it up, make it a little easier.

And the cleaning, cleaning the house
is like a good analogy because it,

it takes time to clean the house.

It's not super fun, but once
it's done, you feel good.

And the more often you do it,
the less time it takes each time.

Does that make sense?

Serena Lander: Yeah, yeah.

I, I think that it is, it is very much…

Uh, maybe it is more like
housework than running.

You know?

Like putting the laundry away that
seems really relevant, yeah, to like

cut down on that internal clutter.

With doing drawings for tattoos, I
had a practice when I was more busy,

like I would do the fun drawings
first to give me energy to do the

ones that were boring, you know?

Like, so find something to like push
my enthusiasm and the potential energy

to, so that like the, you know, the
boring task just does itself in a way

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah, and,
and, uh, you mentioned setting goals.

I think that, I think you can be very
flexible on what constitutes a goal.

Like, it doesn't have to be a life goal.

It doesn't have to be a 10-year goal.

You could say, "I have a goal
that I'm gonna save $100 a month."

You know?

It could be…

That can be one goal, and, and
you can do that, and you can say

like, "Great, I did that goal."

And then, you know, as you tick
off the smaller goals, you can kind

of aim a little higher, you know?

So, I think that can be helpful.

I think framing your goals
in terms of things that are

rewarding that are not money.

Like, like for example, if, I
mentioned this earlier, if you

wanna take a trip, you wanna take a
vacation, like that has a price tag.

And so if just saving money doesn't sound
like fun to you, like if you're like, "I'm

not just saving money for no reason, I'm
saving money so I can do this," or, "So

I can have a break from work," or maybe,
maybe you don't go on a trip, but you

just take one extra week off every year.

Like, that's got a price tag.

You can figure that out.

You can save money so
that you can do that.

And, and, and framing things in
that way of like, how is this…

How does doing this task
directly make my life better?

And that can sometimes
give you more enthusiasm.

I do think also in the spirit of like
goals don't have to be big, they don't

have to take up, they don't have to
be like five years, 10 years, the

rest of your life, I think that most
people who have avoided investing

can get started much easier than
maybe it seems from the outside.

I certainly felt this way.

I had never invested any money until
I was probably, Gosh, I was probably

32 or 33, something like that.

And it just seemed like it must
be very, very complicated, and

that you'd have to spend all day
thinking about your investments.

And once I started doing it, I
realized it can be very simple.

It can be a small, small
amount of money at a time, you

know, whatever, $50 a month.

That's a…

You can totally get started with a
small amount of money every month.

Buy an investment that's easy
to understand, that you can

stick with for a long time.

It doesn't…

You don't have to follow how's Apple doing
this month or how's whatever, you know,

how's this, this stock or that stock.

You can just pick something simple,
put a little bit of money in, and

just let it kind of happen in the
background without you thinking about it.

And I think that's a great thing to
kind of, uh, erode the stigma a little

bit for, for maybe people of your
background, people of my background, who

thought that corporate culture, caring
about money, caring about corporations

was just the worst thing you could
do, to sort of dip your toe in and

say like, "Okay, I can handle this."

Serena Lander: it's interesting
the process with the solar panels

installed on my roof, which they're
not there yet, but, hopefully in the

next 120 days that's gonna happen.

But I got a 401k for my
business a couple years ago.

I moved a bunch of money from IRAs
into the 401k and then, and then

I kind of ignored it, and I haven't
been contributing money to it.

But I've been investing through this
group called Calvert, and I don't

know if you know of them, but it's
all, like, sustainable , socially

responsible companies . So of course
it doesn't make a lot of money.

I mean, but it's okay because
I'm, in my mind, I'm like, "Well,

I'm do- I did the right thing.

I did, I got the 401, so
that's the first step."

And then I kind of realized, like,
watching the 401k bump along that

I, I was like, you know what?

I just really want solar
panels on my house.

And so, like, yes, they are investing
in solar energy, but, like, maybe I just

really wanna do that personally and have
that, you know, that I'm not doomed.

You know?

That it's n- like, that fossil
fuels aren't necessarily going

to win and destroy the planet.

Like, that that industry, that
there's some, like, pushback.

I can participate in doing
something different, like, a

wave of sustainable energy.

So that, that actually, like, helped
the, like, the f- 'cause it is hard

to invest in retirement when it
feels like we're, you know, in the

end times, and, and everything is so
frightening with politics and everything.

I'm, it's r- hard to be interested
in being comfortable as an elderly

person because it almost seems
like things are falling apart

so quickly and, and it's scary.

So, yeah, so, like, for me, like,
finding something that, to invest in

a little bit that was tangible that
gave me a little bit of hope, it

was surprisingly, um, surprisingly
helpful just with my state of mind.

As opposed to just, like, relying on
All the, like, $5 donations and ActBlue

that would make me feel like if I
donate $5 here , $5 there every, every

day or so, like, maybe we'll survive.

But now, yeah, I've kinda
changed my focus a little bit.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah, I
think that's totally reasonable.

Adding solar panels to your house
is a totally reasonable investment

to make because i-i-- first of
all, it is an actual investment.

Like, it will save you
money over the long term.

But like you said, you,
you'll feel good about it.

You'll know that it's right there.

It's a tangible thing.

You'll be able to see it and know, be
like, "This is where my money went."

And k- and, and similarly to dividing
up your property so that you have

rental units, it will make you more
financially secure over the next,

you know, 15 to 20 years because the
investments like that, any kind of

property investment, it just takes
time for those savings to, to pay off.

So I think that's totally reasonable.

I also wanna say I'm very happy that
you're invested in something that

you believe in within your 401k.

Well, that, first of all, that you set
up a 401k is fantastic, and I'm glad that

you're invested in something you believe
in , 'cause one of the things that I

really tell people over and over again
is, rather than trying to optimize what

you're investing in, is pick something
that you can stick with for a long time.

So you might make more money by, by
getting rid of those, uh, you know, those

sustainability filters, and you might make
more money by having a more aggressive

mix of stocks and bonds, but if you can
stick with it a long time, that's when

investing starts to pay off, because
then you get the benefits of compounding.

And so I think it's awesome that
you're invested in something that you

believe in, that you can keep your
money there and feel good about it,

because I think that is the recipe
for success above everything else.

Serena Lander: Yeah, I, I agree.

I, I was really concerned about
having, like, my certain set of

morals and values and then getting
a 401k that was, like, investing in

deforesting rainforests, you know?

Like, I was like , " I can't do that."

Like, I have to make sure that
there- that's not happening

with one single dollar of mine.

and that it feels good to just, even
if it's not making a lot of money,

just, like, it does make some.

It seems to do better than my existing
IRAs, like, just, like, a little bit.

So…

but yeah, like, ha- yeah, having
the tangible reminders I think

are good because you never know.

Like, for people on the West Side
to see more solar panels, then

maybe more people will decide that,
that they wanna participate in a,

like, a sustainable energy system.

And, and then in 30 years my investments
with Calvert might look like something.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: There you go.

Serena Lander: I don't plan to
be alive in 30 years necessarily,

but y- you never know.

Maybe I will be.

anyways, thanks so much for talking.

This was really fun, and I've just
been, yeah, really enjoying your

perspectives and your, like, your
interviews with your other podcast guests.

It's been really fascinating.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Yeah.

Well, thank you so much.

It's been great to catch up with you again

Serena Lander: all right, well, um,
I'll, I'll keep listening in and

have a good rest of your day, Tim.

Nice seeing you.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Thanks.

Nice seeing you too.

I hope to see you soon.

Serena Lander: Yes.

Timothy Iseler, CFP®: Okay, Bye

Timothy Iseler: Thank you so much
to Serena for talking with me today.

She and I go back a long way, and I really
enjoyed this conversation, especially her

honesty about the ambivalence she feels
around money and how she's found her

own path to financial stability through
decisions like keeping her overhead low,

subdividing her property to keep her
expenses lower, and investing in the

things she actually believes in, whether
that's within her self-employed 401k

or the new solar panels for her house.

It was a good reminder that you don't have
to love money or be excited about numbers

to make smart decisions with what you have

That's it for today.

Next week I want to talk about
the difference between saving

money and building wealth.

I actually meant to talk about this
topic last week , but I got excited by

the case study I shared last week, and I
decided to rearrange my release schedule.

And I have to say, that's one of the
best things about working for yourself.

You get to be the one who decides what's
working or not working and what issues are

timely or not, and all kinds of autonomy
that you don't have with a straight job.

But, to paraphrase Spider-Man, with great
freedom comes great responsibility, and

the trade-off for all that autonomy that
comes with working for yourself is that

you also give up the relative security
and stability that comes with a steady

paycheck and someone else being in charge.

That's a fair trade in my book,
but I absolutely understand

why it's not for everyone.

In any case, I'll be back next
week to talk about the differences

between saving and building wealth.

The Thing W e Never Talk
About is for educational and

entertainment purposes only.

It's not legal, investment, or tax advice,
but everyone already knows that, right?

People on the show, including myself,
may have interests for or against

any investments discussed, so do
yourself a favor and don't ever make

any investment decisions based on
what you hear on this or any podcast.

If you like what you hear, please
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After that, you can like and
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If you have a money or a finance
question you would like answered

in a future episode, please visit
iselerfinancial.com/podcast.

Thank you so much for listening.

I really appreciate you