The Thing We Never Talk About

Timothy Iseler: Richard, I end every
conversation with a question for my guest,

and you said you wanted to talk about
melding various revenue streams as, in

your words, "These days, every author's
gotta have a Patreon/Substack/YouTube

channel/podcast/newsletter/online
store/conves- convention

presence, et cetera."

Welcome to The Thing We Never Talk About.

My name is Tim Iseler.

I'm a certified financial planner, and I
run my own independent financial advisory

business, helping musicians, artists,
and other people with weird jobs make

smarter decisions with their money.

You can learn more at iselerfinancial.com.

If you have a question about money or
personal finance, please send it to me

by visiting iselerfinancial.com/podcast,

and I will answer it in a future episode.

And if you enjoy this podcast,
please share it with a friend.

After that, please like and
subscribe to this show wherever

you are listening to it right now.

Today I'm speaking with Richard Dansky,
a game narrative expert and writer based

right here in Durham, North Carolina.

Richard has spent decades working
across tabletop role-playing games,

video games, fiction, and graphic
novels, including a long tenure as

the central narrative resource for
Ubisoft's Tom Clancy franchise.

These days, in addition to his video game
work, Richard writes his own fiction,

continues to contribute to tabletop
games, and has a graphic novel coming

out through French publisher Delcourt.

You can learn more about
Richard at richarddansky.com.

That's R-I-C-H-A-R-D-D-A-N-S-K-Y.com,

and read his thoughts about game
narrative on his LinkedIn page.

I'll also include a link to the issue
of Dark Yonder, in which I first learned

about Richard, in the show notes.

So thank you for being here, and
please enjoy this conversation with

game narrative expert Richard Dansky.

Richard Dansky: Hello, how are you?

Timothy Iseler: I'm well, how are you?

Richard Dansky: Doing well, thank you.

Apart from the neighbors who
are having half their trees

chopped down this morning.

Timothy Iseler: They
like to start that early.

Richard Dansky: Yeah

Timothy Iseler: Richard, what do
you tell people you do for a living?

Richard Dansky: I tell them that
I am a game narrative expert.

Timothy Iseler: A game narrative expert.

How did you find yourself
being a game narrative expert?

Richard Dansky: largely by accident.

Timothy Iseler: Oh, that's the best way.

Tell me, please.

Richard Dansky: Well, um, I did a
master's degree in literature, and that

dead-ended me, academically speaking.

so I ended up starting to write
tabletop role-playing games and then

designing tabletop role-playing games.

And from there, I started writing
fiction as well as moving into

the video game space in 1999
with Red Storm Entertainment, and

I've been doing that ever since.

And much of that time, I was the
central Clancy writer for Ubisoft as

sort of the central narrative resource
for the Tom Clancy's franchise.

And over that time, I've worked
on game story, game narrative

structure, game writing, all sorts
of aspects of game narrative in

a variety of roles from emergency
script doctor to narrative director.

And so rather than try and get
granular, I just tell people I'm a,

I'm a writer or a narrative expert.

Timothy Iseler: Uh-huh.

I imagine that you were familiar with
the world of tabletop games, role-playing

games when you started there, but that
is already a pretty niche industry.

How did you get your foot in the door?

Richard Dansky: Nepotism, really.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Good

Richard Dansky: Okay.

Well, I, um, went to college at Wesleyan
University, and while I was there, I

had a group of friends whom I ran a
tabletop role-playing campaign for.

Uh, the game was called Villains
and Vigilantes, which was largely

you took your friends and gave them
superpowers and then, you know,

punched their way around campus or
whatever local real estate there was.

It was a ton of fun, and I
also was part of a LARP group.

And one of the folks in that LARP group
went to work for White Wolf, she asked

me if I would do some writing for her.

And then when she, Jennifer Hartshorne,
moved from the game Wraith to the game

Vampire: The Masquerade, there was an
opening for Wraith, and she suggested

that I apply for it, and I became the,
the Wraith line developer, as well as the

live action game developer for White Wolf.

And so I went from being a fan, a player,
to being a freelance writer for it, to

being a designer and line editor for it.

Timothy Iseler: What do you
think most people get wrong when

they think about that industry?

Richard Dansky: I think there's still
this mental image of a bunch of teenagers

wearing Rush T-shirts, sitting in a
basement with the half-eaten pizza boxes.

Well, the half-eaten pizza in the
boxes, we don't eat the boxes.

and it is so far beyond that.

I mean, you look at entities like
Critical Role, the folks who grew up

playing these games have returned to
them, they're a wonderfully social

outlet, um, they're something they
can, folks can share with their kids,

and it has expanded so far beyond the
basement and the, the fringe corners.

It has, you know, really informed
so many aspects of our, our popular

culture, there's still that sort of
stigma from the remaining, you know,

football players from 1987 or whoever
that think it's just nerds in a basement

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How did you get from tabletop
games to video games?

Richard Dansky: In 1999, I was sort
of hitting a place with my work in

tabletop where I felt I'd kind of said
everything I needed to say at that point.

I'd worked on over 100 products.

I'd done stuff that was deeply
personal, and I was feeling, okay,

this is the seventh time I've written
the storytelling chapter for a main

rule book, and I'm kind of running
out of different ways to say that.

And a friend of mine who worked at
Red Storm, Dave Weinstein, poking

me to apply there, saying I need a
new challenge, saying that I'd be

great for the role there, saying
they could really use someone with

my skill set writing and design.

And Dave is a very, very persistent
gentleman, and so I gave in and I

applied, and much to my surprise,
they flew me out for an interview.

And then I got a email on Friday saying,
"We're going to make an offer on Monday.

Don't go anywhere."

okay, I really didn't
have anywhere else to go.

And Monday they made the offer, and I
went to my manager at White Wolf and

said, "Hey, I have this offer from a
video game company, but I really like

working here, and I like working for you.

Do you want to make a counteroffer?"

And he looked at me and said, " Go.

Now.

Take it."

Timothy Iseler: How much…

Well, you mentioned that you
were kind of like hitting the

ceiling for tabletop games.

How much are you able now to go back
and forth, or, or is it sort of like

one, one part of your life leads into
the next without going back and forth?

Richard Dansky: I am so incredibly
fortunate in that I get to bounce back

and forth, and at the same time I can be
working on a video game project for my day

job, but in the evening take a freelance
contract for a tabletop role-playing game.

for example, I just finished up a contract
for a game called Curse Born, which was

a ton of fun to write, working with some
folks that I previously worked with back

in the day, and that was a lot of fun.

And also I can do fiction, and
I've got a graphic novel that I

co-authored coming out in January.

I'm just so lucky to be able to
bounce back and forth between the

media, all of which have their own
sort of unique needs and demands and

approaches, and I can be flexible
creatively and play in all those spaces.

I'm really lucky.

Timothy Iseler: How much or how often
are you able to take one idea or

storyline or property from one format
and m- and move it to the other?

Like, are you able to take the
story from a tabletop and turn it

into a comic book, for example,
or a novel or anything like that?

Richard Dansky: I've actually
written several tie-in novels

for tabletop role-playing games.

I wrote the original Clan novel,
La Sombra, back in the day, and

also a trilogy tied into the
tabletop role-playing game Exalted.

projects generally come from
the company that has the IP and

says, "Hey, we love our game.

We wanna do a novel.

What are you doing this week?"

I mean, I, I exaggerate the
timelines, but only just.

And, uh, so I've done that.

You know, the IPs I've worked on
have been all over transmedia.

Sometimes I've been involved,
sometimes I haven't.

There was a Splinter Cell comic that
I helped develop the story for, and

there's, you know, those novels obviously.

I did a Ghost Recon novel.

There were tons of White Wolf comic books
that I had nothing to do with back in the

day, but which were really fun to read.

And a lot of times it's just really fun
to have something that you worked on get

picked up by someone else who is really
good in a different medium and express

it in that medium in their own way.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

You mentioned the different IP, like the
game companies reaching out to you with

their IP or, like, the Tom Clancy stuff.

Is most of your work somebody saying,
"Hey, there's a job that needs done,

you know, do you wanna submit a bid?"

And how much of it is, like, you
looking for that kind of work or,

or even you coming up with your own
characters, your own IP, your own

storylines, and pitching it to companies?

Richard Dansky: I'm very lucky in
that I have enough of a reputation

and a gravity that at times when
someone has wanted me to write

something licensed, they will come to
me and say, "Hey, we have a project.

Are you interested?"

I'm not in a space where I'm doing
the bidding for licensed projects.

Many writers I know are simply because,
one, my focus is on video games, and

two, in those r- instances where someone
says to me, "Hey, we'd like you to write

something for us," they reach out to me
because of my reputation and track record.

So I'm, again, I'm very, very lucky.

But with other IPs, it's people coming,
you know, reaching out to me and saying,

"Hey, we've got this anthology coming out.

We'd like a story from you in it."

And then I do my own fiction
writing, and that's all my own

IP, and whether that goes to live
somewhere else someday, who knows?

I'd love to see some of my novels get
turned into comic books, for example.

But that, that's where things stand.

I'm … I have that creative sandbox
that's all mine, and then I have the fun

of playing in other people's sandboxes,
which can actually be really liberating.

I know a lot of people worry
about the constraints when you're

dealing with someone else's IP.

I look at it that someone else has
already built the walls of the sandbox,

and I get to play immediately instead of
having to build the sandbox from scratch

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, and it, it seems
like you get, uh, a tremendous amount

of freedom where you can do that and you
have the freedom to k- to express your own

ideas in whatever format that comes out.

Like, the, the reason I found out
about you is because of a piece

of fiction you wrote in a, in an
anthology series, called Dark Yonder.

I read that story about the guy
in the fantasy baseball league.

Anyway, that's not really even a
question, but it, it just seems

like it must be really satisfying
to not be penned in in any way.

So you're doing other people's IP, but
then when that gets boring, you can,

like you said with the games, like you
can do your own thing in the evening.

Richard Dansky: Exactly.

And I, I know how incredibly lucky I am to
be in that position to be able to do that.

And also that's, you know, it's a
fun thing, but it's also a creatively

important thing in that if I hit a
wall on one project, I can bounce to

another one and find some productivity
there, or another one, find some

productivity there, and I don't have
to keep beating my head against a wall

on something that's not moving forward.

I can keep a lot of plates spinning, but
that just means that when one plate starts

to wobble, I can address that and let the
other one sit for a while, or just leave

a plate alone if it's not working for me

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

In that specific regard, like
when something's not working, when

the plate's not spinning and you
leave it alone, do you go back

and say like, "Hey, I'm just…

I'm not getting it.

You might wanna look for someone else,"
or do you have the freedom to say like,

"I just need an extra month with this"?

Richard Dansky: I pride
myself on meeting deadlines.

The last two times I've had to ask for
an extension, one was one week, one

was two weeks, and literally that's it
over, you know, my career by and large.

and the thing is, I'm experienced
enough at this point that when

I hit a wall, I know that's my
subconscious saying, "You've made

a mistake somewhere along the way."

And instead of trying to beat my
head against it, the, the advice

I give younger writers actually is
be water, find a way to go around.

Sometimes it's back up and
say, "Okay, how did I get here

and where's the wrong step?"

Sometimes it's, "Okay, I'm stuck here.

Let me write something that is 20 pages
down the road," pick it up where I'm at

a place where I know something's gonna
be, and then I write that, and then I can

backfill to this point where I got blocked
because I know how, where I'm supposed to

go, and I can figure out how to get there.

And so I don't generally get
stopped in my tracks too often,

um, where there's nothing going on.

Either I'll switch to something else
and let it sort of marinate in my

subconscious for a while, or I have
a workaround then I-- Again, having

done this for years, I have a series
of workarounds that I use that are

my go-to tools for that situation.

Timothy Iseler: That one that you
just mentioned of sort of you know

it's gonna happen in 20 pages, so
let's just figure that out and then

figure out how to fill in the details.

Was that something that you
came up with on your own, or

did somebody teach you that?

Richard Dansky: That was something
I came up with on my own.

It was early on, I was working on
a novel and I was at a point where

of the main characters had stopped
speaking to each other for very

Timothy Iseler: Oh

Richard Dansky: And I couldn't
figure out how to get them to

start speaking to each other again.

So I'm like, "Okay, I know they're gonna
start speaking to each other again.

Let's fast-forward there.

Let's, you know, let's jump there,
assume they're speaking to each other

again, and from those interactions,
figure out who said what to

apologize to get us back on track."

And I skipped probably, honestly, 20,000
words in that novel forward, which is

a huge amount . But I was able to write
10,000, 15,000 more words from that place

of understanding, and then knowing what
had happened well enough, I could then

go backfill those 20,000 missing words

Timothy Iseler: you mentioned that early
in your career, like people sort of,

you know, sought you out and brought
you into the fold, first with tabletop

games and then with video games.

And it sounds like you've been pretty
successful about doing the work,

people counting on you to, to deliver
the work at the caliber they expect.

Have you had to deal
with a lot of rejection?

Because that's something I hear a
lot of authors talking about is,

you know, you have to just get
used to the tons of rejection.

Have you had to deal with that?

Richard Dansky: Oh, oh, absolutely.

there's a, a market site for
fiction writers called Duotrope.

It lists markets that you can submit
stories and novels to and whatever,

and they have this lovely tracker where
you can say, "Okay, I submitted this

story to this magazine on this date.

Was it s- was it accepted or rejected?"

Bah, bah, bah.

And I think I've got, like, a 3.7%

acceptance rate on my score,
it is listed as above average.

Timothy Iseler: Wow

Richard Dansky: the trick
is not taking it personally.

Get it-- selling a story or a
novel or whatever is a question of

the right manuscript reaching the
right editor at the right time.

It may be a great story, but it's
just not what that editor likes.

Or it may be a great story, but
they just purchased another story

about Sasquatches a month ago, and
so my Sasquatch story isn't a good

fit for that market at that time.

And you don't take it personally.

You say, "Okay, it didn't work here.

W- where's the next market?"

You keep it spinning, and you just
give yourself as many chances as

possible, as many, you know, bites
of the apple as you can, sooner or

later you'll find that right match

Timothy Iseler: Were you good at
that at when you started, or is that

something you learned over time?

Richard Dansky: Oh, I was
terrible at it totally.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Richard Dansky: in the beginning, every
rejection was the end of the world.

"Oh my God, they hate me,
my writing is terrible."

And, you know, I had some wonderful
mentors in the fiction community,

like the late, uh, James A.

Moore, who s- you know, gave me
a friendly smack on the side of

the head and said, "Knock it off.

Here's how the business works."

And, And so learned and I got to a good
place with that, and I, I have always

really treasured the mentorship I got
in tabletop, in fiction, in video games,

from people who were established in
their careers and had absolutely no need

to do nice things for me, and instead
listened to me, encouraged me, took me

under their wings, showed me the ropes.

And so as long as I have felt I've
had something to offer, really

early 2000s, I have tried to pay
that forward in the industry.

I've done that through…

I've, for many years I ran a student
competition through the GDC Narrative

Summit, I try and do a lot of talks
with schools, and just individual

mentoring sessions, and answering
questions online, and I share my

thoughts on game narrative on LinkedIn.

And so I, I was so lucky in the folks
who were kind to me and showed me the

tools I needed to make my own way,
and I wanna turn around and give those

tools to everyone who asks and who
might follow me, and might do cooler

and more amazing things going forward.

Timothy Iseler: Do you have an example
of one of those rejections that you

turned into something else or maybe
submitted it somewhere else that

then you had success with it or,
you know, got publication with it?

Richard Dansky: Oh yeah, absolutely.

I've had stories that were rejected
from magazines that became basically

series of stories elsewhere.

there's one story called, uh, Beer and
Pennies in particular that stands out.

It's about a guy whose buddy goes
camping at the Devil's Tramping Ground.

You know what the Devil's
Tramping Ground is, right?

Timothy Iseler: I don't know what that is.

Richard Dansky: It's in Siler
City, about an hour west of us,

Timothy Iseler: Oh

Richard Dansky: it's this patch of,
circular patch of ground where nothing

grows, and it's been that way for 100-plus
years, and they can't figure out why.

And the local legend is that after
midnight, the devil himself shows up

and walks around and plans deviltry,
I guess is the right word there.

And if you leave something in the circle,
supposedly it gets thrown out by the

devil, who doesn't like stuff in his way.

And I've been out there, and there
were a whole lot of, you know, cans

of paints from people who've been
huffing paint there and whatever else.

But, you know, it was sort of
a, a supernatural pilgrimage for

the horror writer to go there.

But I wrote a story about a guy who
goes out there with his buddy to make

a YouTube video, and buddy decides
he's gonna sleep in the circle, and

main character says, "The hell with
that," and goes home, and of course,

the next morning they're picking
bits of his buddy out of the trees.

And he goes back and has a conversation
with the devil about what happened,

and the devil gives him a present,
which is very, very double-edged.

that was a story that I wrote and I was
really happy about it, and I sent it in

to Weird Tales Magazine, I got a very,
shall we say, salty response to that.

And I was like, "Okay, oh, ugh,
what, what do I have here?"

But I sort of picked myself up
and turned it around, and now I've

written multiple stories of that
same character that have all sold.

I've got, I think, 25,000 words worth of
stories featuring that character at this

point, and one of the stories featuring
that character is actually the title

story of my last short story collection,
um, Meeting in the Devil's House.

Timothy Iseler: when people are coming
to you, you have this reputation,

they're, they're looking to you to do
this kind of work, how do you decide how

much you charge w- in that situation?

Are they…

Is it like they're saying, "This story
is, pays this much," or are they saying,

"We want you, let's come up with a price"?

Richard Dansky: It depends on the field.

My per hour rate for video
game work is one thing.

I'm not going to be necessarily
in a position to charge that for

a short story, nor should I be.

It's a different type of work.

so depending upon what I'm being asked to
do, then we, we talk it out and figure out

what the best thing is for that project.

If it's something that I wanna do
where maybe the publisher can't afford

top of the line rates but it's really
cool, I'm happy to a little bit of

a haircut and do that because the
satisfaction of the work really matters.

I want to create stuff that people enjoy
and that is meaningful for me to work on.

spent so much of my time writing
900 variants on the word grenade

that I, I, the, I put real value
in writing something cool and fun.

And so, you know, the, the discussion
for a tabletop role-playing game is

different from the discussion for a
graphic novel, is different to the

discussion for a piece of fiction, is
different from the discussion for a

video game.

Timothy Iseler: Is there anything that,
any outlet that you still want to do?

Like, I, I would think given
all of those things, like

screenwriting might be a natural fit.

Is there any other industry
or, or, you know, direction you

would wanna point your writing?

Richard Dansky: I am so happy that I have
this graphic novel coming out next year.

It's a, it's a French publication
through the publisher Delcourt,

one of the big ones over there.

And the French graphic novel
market is very different from

the American comics market.

They don't do capes.

They do everything else.

And a friend of mine who is very well
known over there got asked if he wanted

to do a horror comic, and he said, "I
don't do horror, but I know a guy."

And so I was enough to get asked to
do that, and get taken under the wing

of my friend, who wrote The Killer,
which got turned into a movie with, you

know, Michael Fassbender and, uh, Tilda
Swinton, and had this wonderful experience

trying out a new form and doing that.

And so that was great fun.

I would love to do a
screenplay at some point.

I have a friend who's a screenwriter/video
game writer whom I constantly pester

about picking his brain, and every time
I tell him the idea I want to write,

he says, "I'll talk to you about that."

And then we don't talk for four months.

But, uh

Timothy Iseler: Is there one
industry or outlet that's

sort of your bread and butter?

Richard Dansky: Video games pay the
bills, and I am really happy with that.

I love making video games.

I love the collaborative nature of games.

I love the fact that my words become
something greater than I could have ever

made myself, and then the players pick
them up and have their own adventures

with those words a lot of ways.

So that's where the bulk of my
creative time goes, because that's

also, you know, I'll be blunt, is
the best paying of the markets, and

I'm, I'm really happy with that.

I'm good with that.

I'm just also glad that I get to
dabble in the other stuff too.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, that's great.

Are any of those outlets the sort of
thing where you could get residuals,

or is it just sort of you get paid
what you get paid and, and that's that?

Richard Dansky: Again,
it depends on the medium.

If you're working for a video
game company, unless you have

a very, very specific kind of
contract, they own everything.

It's work for hire.

Same thing goes for tie-in
novels and things like that.

Now, something that I create, I can,
if somebody else picks it up and

adapts it, then I can get money out,
you know, passive revenue on the

back end from what they do with it.

But again, it's, I've got my fingers
in so many pies, and each pie is

different and uniquely sticky, I
guess, is the best way to put it

Timothy Iseler: That's great.

Is there anything that you think you do
especially well in your financial life?

Richard Dansky: Not spend a lot of money.

Timothy Iseler: Hmm

Richard Dansky: That's, that's
honestly the best thing.

I've always tried to be as conservative
as possible in my personal spending,

and the last few years I've sort of
loosened up on that a little bit 'cause

I've had the, "Okay, I'm in my 50s now,
I might want to enjoy some of this."

But by and large, my whole life I have
been, I won't say frugal, but very, very

conscientious of how much was coming
in versus how much had to go out, and

what I had to do to keep the lights on.

That goes back to when I was in graduate
school in Boston College, and I was doing

full-time, you know, graduate school, and
I was also working part-time, you know,

20 to 30 hours a week in a bookstore, and
I was teaching Princeton Review on top

of that to make sure that I had enough
money coming in to keep the lights on.

And then when I moved down to Atlanta
to work for White Wolf, at the same

time I was doing a day job there, but
I was also doing freelance writing and

still teaching for Princeton Review.

I always wanted to be very careful
in terms of making sure that I

wasn't living paycheck to paycheck
if I could at all avoid it.

And that, you know, when, when I moved
to North Carolina and my, uh, my then

wife and I bought this house, we bought
well below what we c- were cleared for

loan-wise because, again, we did not
want to spend it just because we had it.

We wanted to say, "Okay, this is what
we need, let's be careful because we

never know what's coming down the pike."

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

That's-- I think that's a great,
that's great advice for anybody

who has an unpredictable income as
sort of just a survival mechanism.

But it also seems to me that if you're in
a position, like say for example with the

house, like being, being willing to buy
something below the, you know, the max

that you're pre-approved for or whatever,
it seems to me that it also gives you

a lot of freedom because if you're not
sort of paycheck to paycheck, you have

the ability to say no to certain things.

You have the ability to take bigger
swings for things that might not work out.

Well, first of all, does
that resonate with you?

Have, have you found that in your life?

And if so, like what, what kind of freedom
have you experienced because of that?

Richard Dansky: I, I think it
does resonate to a certain extent.

Part of it also is that I have always been
terrible at doing nice things for myself.

Timothy Iseler: Oh

Richard Dansky: I haven't taken a lot
of swings of, hey, I'm, I'm going to

take a two-week trip to Thailand or
whatever, um, just because it just

never occurred to me that that was
the sort of thing I should be doing.

But what it has done, it has allowed me
to constantly the freedom to be secure,

and then that frees up my creativity.

Because I wasn't paying every dime to
the house, I was in position to pay cash

for a car at one point, that meant that I
didn't have that extra bill every month.

The car was paid for, and that was
a load off my mind, and I could take

that energy from worrying about that to
putting it to my creativity and doing more

writing and finding fulfillment there.

So it may not have been in terms
of things, it may not have been in

terms of travel, but that came back
to work for me in terms of creative

freedom and freedom of expression
and being in a good place to write.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

That reminds me of something that
I've experienced and, and that someone

said to me once, which was that he
had always kind of thought that paying

attention to his money would be like…

Then he would just always spend all
of his time thinking about money.

But i- actually, it's
kind of like the opposite.

Like, if you get a little bit of literacy
around your money, a, a few techniques

that work for you, all of a sudden you
think about it that much less because it's

not this source of stress that's kind of
always cooking in the back of your head.

And that feels great to not
carry that around with you.

Richard Dansky: Mm-hmm.

just getting enough literacy to know
that, you know, your, your portfolio

is not your fantasy baseball team.

You n- do not need to
make moves every day.

You know, the market's gonna go
up, the market's gonna go down.

If you fret over every little
thing, you're going to go crazy.

It's, it's what matters in the long
term, as long as the general trend

is good, relax, enjoy the ride,
and put the energy somewhere else.

And also, I'm terrible at fantasy
baseball, so I really don't wanna apply

those same principles to my, my portfolio

Timothy Iseler: Uh-huh.

Was that story I read, uh,
slightly autobiographical?

Richard Dansky: More,
more than slightly, yes.

My friends and I have discussed sending
ransom letters to various baseball

teams offering not to draft their
players in exchange for, you know,

autographs or tickets or whatever else.

And we've been in this league for
over 30 years, since, since we were in

college, uh, same bunch of guys mostly.

A bunch of us are so bad and so unlucky,
and the guys that we draft always

get injured or have terrible years.

It doesn't matter what they did last year.

As long as they're on one or two
p- specific teams, they are doomed.

And so we, we were jokingly talking
about sending those ransom letters to

baseball teams, and then when, uh, the
editors of Dark Yonder poked me to send

in a story and see how it turned out,
that's where my mind went, "Okay, let's

do a fantasy baseball-themed noir."

I'm pretty sure that is territory
that no one else has addressed.

Timothy Iseler: Got the
market cornered on that.

Richard Dansky: Yep

Timothy Iseler: What's…

one thing you wish people in
your industry knew about money?

Richard Dansky: that they deserve it.

Timothy Iseler: Oh.

Richard Dansky: And I say that very,
very directly in that there is an

endless attempt to denigrate the
value of what writers and narrative

designers and creative folks do
because it is not necessarily

quantifiable as working or not working.

And there's a lot of, "Hey, you know,
y- I can write, anybody can write.

See, I just typed some
words," and that devalues it.

There's a lot of work put in place
to make the role feel lesser than it

is, to downplay the contribution, and
then downplay what people doing this

stuff get paid, when good writing, good
narrative adds immeasurably to a game.

we are professionals, we are experts.

We should be compensated for our
craft, for our time, for our money.

And this goes all the way across
all the fields that I write in.

Video games, you see the
lowball offers all the time.

Uh, in the short fiction market, you
go through a market report and it's

like, "Hey, we can't afford to pay
you, but we'd love to have your story."

No, no, no, no.

You know, don't tell me that
you're giving me exposure.

People die of exposure.

And if you do the work, you should be
compensated for it, and if you're doing

the work at a professional level, you
b- should be comp- you know, you should

be compensated in a professional way.

And this is not, this is
not fun, know, or just fun.

This is not a hobby, this is a profession,
and we have professional training and we

have worked at it, and we do professional
grade work and should be treated as such.

Timothy Iseler: Do you think your
peers have internalized that?

The, the idea that they don't
deserve it, or, or is that more

like the people writing the checks
kind of treating you that way?

Richard Dansky: It's definitely the
people writing the checks who treat

a lot of people that way, and it gets
sort of beaten into a lot of the juniors

and the folks coming into the field
who are so eager to get that job and

so afraid of risking their chances
that they'll put up with a, a lot, and

frankly more than they should, I think.

And once you've been around the
block a few times, begin to realize

how valuable your work is and how
specialized and technical in certain

ways it is, and that it has value.

if you don't do that, frankly, you,
you wear yourself into the ground

and burn out and you're done.

you don't learn to stand up for yourself
to get the, the compensation, to get the

professional respect and resources and
time that you need to do the job well.

So the trick is sort of instilling
that lesson earlier so people

don't dig holes for themselves

Timothy Iseler: How did you learn that?

Did you-- You mentioned you had a mentor.

Did somebody sort of express that to
you, or did you learn the hard way?

Richard Dansky: Oh, I
learned the hard way.

Timothy Iseler: Uh-huh.

Richard Dansky: So when I first came out
for that interview with Red Storm, the end

of the day, I sat down with HR, the woman
in front of me said, "You know, I know

this is not binding, but, you know, I'd
just like an idea of your salary range."

And I sat there for a minute, and I took
the number that I was making at White

Wolf after four years of doing more books
per year than anybody else pretty much,

and more online chats and convention
experiences and whatever, on top of that,

I piled all my freelance writing for that
last year, which was a very productive

year and I wrote a lot of words.

And I threw a couple thousand dollars on
top of that just to be cheeky, presented

that number to the HR representative
at Red Storm, and she laughed out loud.

Timothy Iseler: Aha

Richard Dansky: And then she said,
"We can do better than that."

And I said, "Oh, God, what have
I been doing with my life?"

Timothy Iseler: Well, I'm glad
she said that instead of laughing

and saying, "Done," you know?

I'm glad that, you know, there's
honest people out there anyway

Richard Dansky: Yeah.

I, I appreciated that from her,
but also I realized, oh my God.

I, I actually had a conversation
later, and I'm probably telling a

tale out of school here, with a former
coworker who said, "Yeah, the whole

time we were there I was miserable,
but the one thing that kept me going

was knowing how much more they were
paying me than they were paying you.

Timothy Iseler: Oh, that's interesting.

So I used to tour with bands for a living.

I was an audio engineer, and I was
and still am a firm believer that

before you take a job, you should talk
to everyone you know about is this a

good rate or what should I be charging
for this type of a gig or whatever.

But once you're on it, I
think you should kind of…

people should not talk about that
for exactly that reason because then

you find out that, like, this person
who's, you know, perhaps junior to

you is making more than you because,
you know, whatever, whatever.

And then I, I've never found that to be
productive once somebody realizes that

either they're making less than they
should or that it's, you know, sometimes

even when you realize that someone
you're working with is getting underpaid,

it, you know, it never feels great.

Richard Dansky: Yeah, but at the
same time it's productive for the

person who's getting underpaid
to maybe realize their value.

And the, the example I'll go to there
is, uh, Diana Rigg on The Avengers.

Famous story, she found
out she was getting 10%

Timothy Iseler: Oh my God

Richard Dansky: the male
co-star was getting.

She demanded equality and was told no, and
so she quit, and then the show cratered.

if your business model is
built on screwing your people,

Timothy Iseler: Hmm

Richard Dansky: at a certain level
it feels kinda unsustainable, and

it simply makes more sense to reward
the folks who are, who are the best

performers, and that way you'll
continue to get great performance.

Timothy Iseler: Have you had
to deal with much of that?

Because it, it sounds like you've had
pretty good employment experiences.

Have you been in a situation, you
don't have to name names, but where

you were like, you know, where realize
that the person you're working for is

just out to kind of screw everyone?

Richard Dansky: I haven't
had that in the day job.

I've had that in some of the
freelance work that I've done.

And there are wonderful small
independent publishers who do amazing

work, and then there's ones who
are, shall we say, less than that.

you just, you keep an eye open and
you keep your ear to the ground

and, and people talk, and you
figure out who's good to work with

and who's not good to work with.

And so, you know, there's publishers
I will never submit to simply because

there's such a long history of screw
jobs, for lack of a better way of

putting it, coming out of that place.

And there's, there's no point in putting
yourself in that position where you're

just going to get damaged, there's
no point in giving away your labor.

We, we all have a certain amount of
productive time of, my field, you know, a

certain amount of creative time, creative
energy, and why waste it on people who

are going to not give you your due for it?

Timothy Iseler: You mentioned that
people talk about those things.

Where is that typically happening?

Are they, is it like in
person or online communities?

How are you having those conversations?

Richard Dansky: Writers have a lot
of community that manifests in online

spaces, at conventions, mailing
lists, uh, Discords, things like that.

there's no formal re- you know, there's
no really no formal, "Hey, you know, red

flag," um, except on very rare occasions.

There, you know, there are writers
organizations that will issue warnings.

There are just, you know, quiet
meetings in a bar at a convention

where people will swap stories of,
"Hey, you know, I worked with this

publisher and they were really great,
and they've got an anthology coming up.

You should put in a story."

And also, "Okay, here's how this publisher
screwed me and, you know, took my book

took orders for it, you know, years and
years ago and has never published it.

And since it's payment on
publication, I've never seen a dime."

and so word gets around.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

You mentioned that you, I think you said
you didn't wanna use the word frugal,

but that you've spent below your means.

Is there anything that is expensive
but you think is totally worth it?

Richard Dansky: There's no one
thing other than the tools of your

trade, but should not stint yourself
for the sake of stinting yourself.

If you're not in a good place,
happy with yourself, you're not

gonna be doing your best work.

So don't feel you need to toss around
every dime like it's a manhole cover.

Occasionally, you know, go take
yourself out to a nice dinner to reward

yourself for things that you've done.

If you like wine, once in a while
buy a nice bottle for yourself.

You've earned it.

It's not so much, you know, "Here is
the one thing you can do," it's more

you should reward yourself for having
done things, and sometimes that's just,

you know, taking a nap, and sometimes
that's, "Hey, I've finished this big task.

I should buy myself something nice that
I can enjoy and that I can remember

as, for the completion of this."

And that, that varies person to person.

I mean, for me, at this point, it is
either books or single malt whiskey.

Timothy Iseler: Those are your rewards?

Richard Dansky: Yeah, if I, if I, you
know, I finish a, a novel manuscript,

I will probably go buy myself a nice
bottle to share with friends as a

reminder, "Hey, I did a big thing here."

That rewarding yourself for having
accomplished stuff is really valuable

in the creative process, because
otherwise you get into this really

nasty place where nothing you do is
good enough, and just because you've

done a thing, you have 10 million other
undone things that you're focusing on.

And no, you, you need to take care of
yourself and say, "Hey, I did the thing.

This matters.

This is important.

I deserve something for
having a- accomplished that."

Timothy Iseler: Do you, f- just for
yourself, do you know what the reward

is gonna be in advance, or do you
wait until you're done and then say,

you know, "What's exciting to me?"

Richard Dansky: I, I wait
and see what's, what's there.

I mean, it's-- a lot of it honestly
grows out of the project in particular

and what's appro- what, what feels
like an appropriate reward for that.

And so, you know, sometimes it's a, an
old book that I've had my eye on for a

long time, because I collect old horror
novels, sometimes it's just, "Okay, I just

finished this, you know, you know, short
story about Sasquatches, and, uh, yeah,

I'm gonna buy myself a Sasquatch T-shirt.

That's cool."

Timothy Iseler: There you go.

Do you know a lot about Japanese whiskeys?

Richard Dansky: I do actually.

Um,

Timothy Iseler: Okay

Richard Dansky: I think eight bottles on
the, the shelf over there to my right.

Timothy Iseler: Do you know Ichiro's Malt?

Richard Dansky: I do not.

Timothy Iseler: Okay, that was, I'm
spacing on the name of the current

distillery, but the story I heard was
that there was a guy whose grandfather

was a distiller, and everything was
getting swallowed up by the, the two

big ones, uh, Suntory and Nikka was--
They were buying all of the distilleries

everywhere, and the grandfather was
gonna go out of business, and his

grandson got enough money to buy
the distillery from his grandfather.

And while he was getting his own
product made and aged, he was selling

all of his grandfather's backstock,
and his grandfather was Ichiro.

And so whatever there was, that was it.

As soon as it, it was gone, it was gone.

They would never make it again.

And I got, one of the last times I was in
Japan, I got an, a 12-year Ichiro's Malt.

And now it's unobtainium.

And I keep that as my reward
when I finish a record.

I break it out and I have a little
bit of the irreplaceable whiskey.

Richard Dansky: That's fantastic.

That's, that's wonderful.

Yeah, I, I have something similar.

Um, I have a bottle of the Mosstowie,
and there, there's a long and complicated

story of the first time I went to Paris
for extended work for Ubisoft, and

me wandering around the Marais in the
middle of the night in the rain and

finding a whiskey bar, and discovering
this magical whiskey in there, and

then a years-long pursuit of it.

But the, uh, the long and the short of it
is that they went out of business in '79.

Timothy Iseler: Oh, wow

Richard Dansky: every so often, you
know, a cask emerges and gets bottled and

you know, we all descend like locusts.

And I w- I was lucky enough to
get my hands on three bottles

of the stuff over the years.

And the first one, um, was it, I shared
it with friends, and finished it off

with my father on his 80th birthday.

And so that, that was really meaningful.

The second one went to, went to s-
a, a slightly different route, but I

still have the third one, and that I am
saving against good knows, knows what.

But yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Some, some amazing success.

I don't know.

Cool.

Well, Richard, I end every conversation
with a question for my guest, and you

said you wanted to talk about melding
various revenue streams as, in your

words, "These days, every author's
gotta have a Patreon/Substack/YouTube

channel/podcast/newsletter/online
store/conves- convention

presence, et cetera."

Before I give any of my thoughts on
that, do you wanna add context for that?

And, and specifically I'm asking,
what do you mean by melding

the various revenue streams?

Richard Dansky: by melding I mean
taking all of those bits and bobs

and finding a way to to maximize all
that and ma- get the best efficiency

out of your effort in all those
different spaces, and organize that

money coming in for business purposes,
tax purposes, et cetera, et cetera.

Uh, for myself, uh, this weekend, I am
going to a small convention down in Lee

County, and I'll be sitting behind a
table and selling my books, because if

I buy a book from a publisher or it's
a self-published book, I get a lot more

money from it selling it directly to
fans, and also then I can autograph it.

So that's one revenue stream.

And then, um, I'm also going
to be doing a reading, and

there'll be books sold at that.

I also have a Patreon that I post on every
day, and I have an online store that sells

my books and T-shirts that my niece makes
that have, uh, Sasquatch on them actually,

because that's a running theme in my life.

And I also have, you know, the fiction
writing and the non-fiction writing and

tabletop game writing and the day job,
and all of the … You know, it's money

coming from various directions, and
sometimes in large amounts, sometimes

in small amounts, and it's just … And
sometimes it feels a bit overwhelming, and

any thoughts you have on how I can sort
of organize would be greatly appreciated.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, and I guess some
of these suggestions sort of depend on

how technical you wanna get and how much
you like building spreadsheets versus

how sort of big picture you wanna be.

One thing that came to mind is the
frequency of these different things.

Like say for example, a Substack
or a Patreon, there's usually this

assumption that you're going to be
sending it out pretty regularly.

So,

Richard Dansky: Mhm

Timothy Iseler: uh, versus perhaps, like,
a convention, you might do that only

every once in a while, or maybe you do
one per season or something like that.

So thinking about how often
does this happen, and what is

the purpose for this happening?

Like, if you have a Patreon,
if you have a Substack…

Well, the Patreon only exists
to make money, I think.

Substack, you can have
it monetized or not.

But some things are there to make
money, and some things are just there

to increase your presence to the world.

Like say for example, well, for
me, for this podcast, I don't need

to make money doing this podcast.

There are people who make money doing
podcasts, but I don't need to do that,

and so I don't think of it in those terms.

It's, it's really more about, you know,
it's a, it's a marketing tool for me.

So anyway, getting back to what I was
saying is like, how often does it have

to happen and what is the purpose?

And then based on that, a really, uh, in
terms of optimizing or, or thinking about

what to prioritize is really comparing
like how much of a commitment is it or,

or what's your time obligation versus
the revenue in terms of how to best

use your time, et cetera, et cetera.

I would also say at a very basic
level, kind of treating each of

those as if it was its own business,
even if they all funnel into you and

you collect all the money yourself.

Like if your conventions, right?

If that's its own business, what does
that need to be a successful business?

And it would-- it kind of will require
you to maybe wear many hats or like take

one hat off, put another hat on, but
when you're thinking about conventions,

it's not just sort of like, what's
the, uh, what's the dollar amount?

It's, you know, if this were a business,
what would make this a good business?

Does that make sense?

Richard Dansky: Yeah, absolutely.

Timothy Iseler: in terms of how
that translates to your income

or to your taxes, I guess it de-
depends on how you're getting paid.

Do you have an LLC?

Richard Dansky: I do.

Timothy Iseler: do you elect to
be treated as an S corporation?

Richard Dansky: Not yet.

I'm thinking of actually making that
conversion now that the freelance

work on the video game side has
actually been a certain threshold.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

So that is, uh, one way to, to
introduce some tax efficiency.

even if you have an LLC, you're
taxed the exact same way as any

freelancer or any self-employed person.

So if you do this S corp election,
it allows you to treat a portion of

your profit as if it's your payroll,
and the other portion as if it's just

profit because you run a good business.

And what that saves you on is employment
taxes, which, when you have a W2 job

is called FICA, and when you work for
yourself, you know, 1099 or an LLC,

it's just called self-employment tax.

So that, that's one way to save a little
bit of money as all of those come in.

any- anybody who has an LLC can do
it, but it kind of only makes sense

if you're making enough money that it's
worth your time because it does require

you to do a little more paperwork.

It requires you to file your
taxes a little bit differently.

So it, it does take a little more
effort and sometimes that can cost

you money depending on if you hire
a CPA to run your books or whatever.

So, anybody could do it, but
if you're making, you know,

$50,000 as a self-employed
person, it might not be worth it.

But if you're making 100,000
then you might have an

opportunity to save some money.

Does that make sense?

Richard Dansky: Absolutely, yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Did I, did I do
an all right job of answering what

you were hoping for or would you
like to dig deeper at any, any

aspect of that or any other topic

? Richard Dansky: No, I think this is
a, a great, uh, lens through which

I can reexamine what I'm doing and
give, give the cold, hard look to

every, every aspect of what I've got
and move a- move forward from there.

I really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, of course.

I appreciate you being
willing to talk to me.

Um, I didn't know anything about That
Dark Yonder, and I didn't know there

was this sort of noir dark fiction
community in and around Hillsboro.

So I'm, I was very happy to learn
about that and very happy to

read your story, and thank you so
much for talking with me today.

Richard Dansky: It, it was my pleasure.

I'm really glad you enjoyed the story.

Uh, hope to maybe cross paths with
you at Yonder Bar at some point.

there's also a, a whole horror writer
community around here that's doing

readings and things like that as well.

Timothy Iseler: All right, well,
I'll keep an eye out for you.

Richard Dansky: Cool.

Timothy Iseler: All right.

Thank you so much, Richard.

Richard Dansky: Thank you.

I really enjoyed it.

Timothy Iseler: Bye.

Richard Dansky: Bye-bye

Timothy Iseler: Thank you to
Richard for talking with me today.

I have to admit that game narrative
is not a world I knew much about

before this conversation, so I really
appreciate his perspective and expertise.

One thing that stood out was Richard's
point that writers and narrative designers

deserve to be compensated fairly for
their work, which also applies to

musicians, visual artists, and other
creatives that I know and work with.

You can find Richard at richarddansky.com.

That's it for today.

Next week, I want to talk about
the difference between saving

money and building wealth.

I think that regularly saving a
chunk of every paycheck is one

of the most helpful and impactful
habits that anyone can develop.

And as I say over and over again, I think
everyone should maintain a cash cushion

in an interest-bearing account of at least
three to six months worth of expenses.

But there is a world of difference
between saving lots of money in your

bank account and turning that money
into something that can let you

decide what to do and when to do it.

Wealth is not a number, but the ability
to choose when, how, and if you work.

And I want everyone to start
making progress towards that goal.

I'll talk about that next week.

The Thing We Never Talk
About is for educational and

entertainment purposes only.

It is not legal,
investment, or tax advice.

People on the show, including myself,
may have interests for or against

any investments discussed, so do
yourself a favor and don't ever make

any investment decisions based on
what you hear on this or any podcast.

If you like what you hear, please
share this episode with a friend.

After that, please like and
subscribe to this show wherever

you are listening to it right now.

If you have a money or finance question
you'd like answered in a future episode,

please visit iselerfinancial.com/podcast.

And you can get my insights on money and
more delivered directly to your inbox by

subscribing to my Keep It Easy newsletter
at iselerfinancial.com/newsletter.

Thank you so much for being here.

I appreciate you.