The Thing We Never Talk About

Timothy: I end every.

conversation with a question from the
person I'm speaking with and yours

was what's the best way for freelance
musicians to think about retirement funds?

Are you ready?

Let's go.

Hi everyone and welcome to the
thing we never talk about a podcast

about personal finance for weirdos.

My name is Tim Iseler I'm a
certified financial planner and I

run my own independent financial
advisory business in Durham NC.

But before that I spent 18 years
in the music industry working as

an audio engineer in both recording
studios and touring with bands.

This show, like my business, is for
people who chose their professional

paths based on following a passion or a
dream that includes artists, musicians,

authors, podcasters, roadies, and
anyone who decided to turn a skill or

talent into a career rather than pursue
more conventional mainstream careers.

And those people need ways to
talk and learn about the most

forbidden topic of all, money.

The Thing We Never Talk About brings
some of those ideas and conversations

into a public space to help people who
feel out of step with the mainstream

make better decisions with their money.

And, of course, if you enjoy the
show, please like and subscribe

on your platform of choice.

today I'm speaking with musician
and author Franz Nicolay.

Franz is a member of the Holdsteady
and co founded the Composer

Performer Collective Antisocial
Music, among other musical pursuits.

And he's the author of the new book, Band
People, Life and Work in Popular Music.

Franz interviewed a ton of musicians
for the book, many of whom I know.

And there's a lot of crossover between
the topics discussed in his book and the

challenges faced by many of my clients.

So I was really excited to connect
with him and learn more about his

history in both music and writing.

I hope you enjoy the interview.

Here we go.

Hello Franz, thanks for being here.

Franz: Hi, thanks for having me.

, Timothy: of course.

What do you tell people
you do for a living?

, Franz: that's a good question.

, and not as simple as it
once would have been.

I'm a musician and a writer, , and
I teach at Bard College.

Timothy: Okay, great.

, we're going to cover all of that today.

, I first heard about you through a review
of your new book called band people,

which we'll talk about in a second, but
I want to start with the musician side.

So you're a member of the Hold Steady,
which I didn't realize until I read

that review and I've actually seen you
perform a number of times and you've been

in music for, let's say, 25 plus years.

Is that fair?

Franz: Yeah, that's about right.

Timothy: Okay.

How did you get started?

Franz: I got started as a kid.

The family story is that I saw
Yitzhak Perlman on Sesame Street and

asked for a violin when I was five
years old and they got, got me one.

And I started playing piano the year
after that and French horn when I

was nine, so I could join band in
elementary school and started playing

guitar when I was 15, as you do.

, Just sort of added, added things, , as
I went, , neither of my parents were

musicians, but they were artists and,
, very supportive of creative ambitions.

, so they, they found me some good
teachers, , , and I had, , had a cassette

box set of sort of narrated lives of
composers interspersed with their music.

, my initial ambition was
that I was going to.

Be a, be a composer in
the, in the classic sense.

, and so I had teachers, even in
elementary school who would work

with me on counterpoint and voice
leading and, , that taught me harmony.

And, , and then in middle school and high
school, I was working with a, a guy who

was a, a jazz pianist and jazz composer
who taught me some of that harmony.

, and I ended up.

Going to I did the Berkeley School of
Music has a summer program for 16 year

olds like a sleepaway camp for music
nerds , which was really transformative

in the sense of I had grown up in a
really small town And so that was the

first time I've been living in a city
I've been living among people who shared

my interests and hadn't known me since I
was four years old So it was it was the

door opening and saying oh, there's gonna
be In a year or two, there's going to

be a much bigger world available to you.

And so then I moved to Greenwich
village for college and

went to NYU for, for music.

, I could keep going, but basically
I got, , you know, I got, I did

a, I, I studied at NYU as a jazz
pianist and, , they had a split.

major where you could do your, , ensembles
and private lessons in the jazz program

and then do composition and orchestration
and so on with the classical folks.

So I did that, not with the idea
that, , I wanted to be a jazz pianist.

strictly a composer, , but that I would
leave with the, , as full of toolkit and

then just go out there and start taking
whatever gig I could and see what stuck.

. Timothy: When you were at that point of
like getting out there, taking whatever

gigs, , what did success look like?

Or, or did you even think in those terms?

Franz: I wanted to be able to
make a living as a musician.

, so beyond that, I wasn't
all that specific.

I just assumed that I was going
to have my hand in a lot of pies.

, I wanted to.

I have a career as a singer
songwriter, maybe fronting a band.

I wanted to, , I had been involved
in getting a, this composer performer

collective called Antisocial Music
started, , and so I had a venue for

my chamber music that I was writing.

, I had gotten interested in accordion
and playing Balkan music, , and so.

Eventually I put a group together
that was going to do that.

, it was just sort of, the idea was,
and this was, I think in the 90s,

there was still a sense that there
was going to be a lot of, that there

was a lot of music money available.

, I got, the idea was that one of the things
would, , would sort of get to, get to the

point where I could support the other,
the other things alongside, , with, with

whatever the tentpole gig was going to be.

Timothy: Yeah.

And did you have periods in your
life where music paid all the bills?

Franz: Um, I had periods in my life
where I didn't have another job.

Timothy: Ha ha ha.

Franz: Let's put it that way.

, you know, I, I eventually
reluctantly quit my day job.

I had a variety of jobs
in the early 2000s.

the last couple were working for
classical music nonprofits or

new music nonprofits in the city.

So the American Music Center, , a
group called Meet the Composer.

Those organizations are now combined,
, and I clung to those eventually as

long as I could, , but then the,
particularly the whole study touring

commitment became too much, and my
immediate superior at , meet the composer

eventually said, Hey, it looks like
you're going to be on the road a lot.

Like we need to hire
somebody else for this job.

It's like, ah, yeah, you're right.

, but then, I mean, we weren't, there's
like, did it pay all the bills?

No, you know, I, you know, between world
inferno and the hold steady, I was on

the road nine months out of the year,
but I did, um, you know, the, the money

as you, as you may know, is, , is sort
of lags behind the The media success,

for example, for groups like that.

So I did end up losing my apartment.

I experimented with You know, not
having a permanent residence for a

little while , I mean, being on the
road a lot, nine or 10 months out of

the year, you can get by with not having
that much money, because you do tend

to get fed, and you get free beer.

, The real crunch for all of us was about
where to live when we were off the road.

So we did have a converted, we,
our touring vehicle at that point

was a converted panel truck, like
a refrigerated, you know, like

milk delivery truck or whatever
that, , a guy that bouncing souls

knew, had, sort, had tricked out
with a, with a loft in the back.

And, you know, there was like a TV bolted
to the door and you could sleep in there.

And so definitely, , between
the five of us.

When we were at home for a week or
two, we would sort of take turns who

was sleeping in the car parked, you
know, by the water in Greenpoint.

I spent some nights on a couch
on top of North 6, the venue.

, you know, there's a, there's
a way in which you're like,

I'm just gonna, I'll crash on
somebody's couch for a week or two.

But of course, you come off
the road and you're, you're,

you're, you're like a maniac.

Like you can't.

communicate with normal human beings,
much less the kind of like diplomacy

and friendliness that it requires
with people who are doing you a favor.

. so eventually I did, a friend of mine
volunteered, who had a loft in Bushwick,

volunteered to I mean really just wall
off a corner of her of her room with

a loft bed in it and rent that to me
for 500 a month, you know, it was like,

probably five foot by five foot windowless
space but it was just sort of worth

it to me to have a place where I could

come off the road and close the door
behind me and not have to talk to anyone.

But yeah, financially, I don't think I
ever, you know, in those, in those old

steady years, I never made more than
about 35 grand off of the whole steady.

Timothy: Yeah.

Franz: So, , I made, you know, twice that
when I was doing my solo touring, playing

for a fraction of the number of people,
just cause the overhead was so much lower,

? . It was just me driving around.

Right.

So.

, you know, think about all that it takes
to get five people plus a skeleton crew

from one place to another and the gas
and the hotel rooms and the, you know,

all of this and that, like it's expensive
to move a band around and it's not that

expensive to move up one person around.

Timothy: Yeah,

Franz: You know, my, what's, what's
my daily expense if I was driving

myself around in a compact car would
be, you know, let's say 30 to 60 in

gas and then whatever I needed to eat.

And so if I made, you know, a 300
guarantee and 300 more dollars

in merch sales, that's a pretty
good, not on a day to day basis.

, you know, that's predicated again,
it's all predicated on working so much.

It was, it was predicated
on playing 200 shows a year.

, and particularly once I became
a parent that it just wasn't.

feasible anymore.

I had to rethink the whole thing.

But, you know, for five years it was
a, it was a pretty good business model.

. Timothy: So, everybody knows,
everyone everywhere knows

you don't talk about money.

In polite company, sometimes
not even in close company.

And that's doubly true when you're a
musician or, you know, even a roadie.

I was a roadie.

Like the worst thing you could say is
that you care about your money or you

want some degree of financial stability
you don't have to name any names, but

have you seen friends or maybe even
yourself successfully navigate that?

gap between I want to do something purely
creative because I love it and I'm a

musician and that's my art and I need
to, you know, you mentioned having a

kid, like your responsibilities change.

I need to actually think
about financial stability.

Have you seen some examples
of how that has worked well?

Franz: Well, I think people, it
depends on personality, right?

It's not just musicians.

It's one of the great
pathologies of American life.

It's this, this taboo
against talking about money.

And it's, , it's one of the ways
in which people become complicit in

their own exploitation, usually, , is
this sense that, That it's taboo.

, musicians, you know,
musicians are idealists.

Musicians want to say yes to most
things, , and, and are usually willing

to, to work on a vastly sliding scale,
just as long as they don't feel like

they're being taken advantage of.

So it's a matter of dignity, which is
something I talk a lot about in the book.

, you know, the, the anecdote that I
think of is Shehzad Ismaili in the,

in the introduction to the book where
he's saying, you know, , If someone

asks, he says, if someone asked me
to do a project, what I say to them

now is I want you to go away and
ask me how much money I want for it.

Right.

He says, I want you to go away and
spend a quiet time with yourself

thinking about your budget.

You know your budget better than I
do spend a little time and ask myself

what's the most I could pay Shahzad.

And come back to me with that number and
I want to say yes to that number, whether

it's Damian Rice at 1, 500 a day or my
buddy who works as a janitor for 50 bucks.

I want to be able to say
yes to both of those things.

, you know, and that's,
involves trusting this.

, but you know, that's the kind of world
that I think most of us want to live in.

, you know, I said, I basically came up
with a, of a, with like a session rate for

myself at one point, , which was useful.

And then after a certain period of time, I
doubled it just to see what would happen.

And turned out people could pay that too.

You know, I think there was only one.

Person who asked me to play on their
record and I quoted them the rate

and I never heard about it again.

which, you know, makes me think
I could maybe charge more, but

I'm not trying to exploit people.

Timothy: Yeah.

Yeah.

When I was a roadie, I used to tell
people, this is what I like to make.

You let me know what you can do, and
if it was close, I would usually talk

to them more, and if it was, you know,
if I told them a number and their

number was half, I'd be like, okay,
well, that's too much of a stretch.

Franz: You don't want to come home
and not be able to pay your rent.

So there is a, there's a floor
on the thing after a certain

point, if you're not 17.

Timothy: Yeah, so your book, Ban People,
, , talking to, you know, air quotes,

normal musicians, normal working gigging
musicians, sometimes for hire, sometimes

in the band about what it takes to get
by in a notoriously difficult business.

, I wonder, were there any common
responses that really surprised

you , , , either because they
differed from your lived experience

or maybe they just seemed so left of
field, but you saw them many times.

Franz: I think what surprised me is
the questions where people came down

vehemently on opposite sides of the
question, as if it were self evident.

Timothy: Yeah,

Franz: Right?

So, the question of, for example,
is it better to be a really

transformative musician or a better hag?

People would say, Oh, obviously, you know,
I've all the work I've gotten is not cause

I'm a great guitar player, but because
I, people like having me around and on

the one you people on the one hand, on
the other hand, people would say, well,

yeah, obviously if someone's a really
incredible musician, I want them on the

gig, even if they're a little prickly.

, and so that's one of those things
where I think it's probably useful.

For people to hear that that
that it's not self evident in

the way that they may assume.

, Timothy: were there any other of
those like an example of another

self seemingly self evident thing
that people differed wildly on?

Franz: Well, the other one that comes
to mind is the question of whether

you should approach playing live and
playing in the studio differently.

, Some people, you know, on the one
hand would be people who are saying,

obviously you approach playing in
the studio the same as playing a lot.

If you want to capture a performance,
you want to capture, you know, what a

band sounds like with that same level
of, , spontaneity versus the people who

thought, who said, no, absolutely being in
the studio is a totally different beast.

, it's a totally different scale.

, I approached it totally differently.

It was one of the great learning
experiences of my career to, to

understand how you had to be, how
the difference between, you know,

most people played many, many live
shows before they go into the studio.

Right.

So, , it can, I think to some
people, it came as a real surprise.

That to just get in the studio
and play your live set doesn't

sound quite how you think it does.

Timothy: Yeah, yeah almost never
Band People is your third book.

So you you've seen the ins and outs of
both the recording and , music industry

worlds and the publishing worlds.

What are some pros and cons or maybe some
stark contrasts between those two worlds?

Franz: Yeah, I mean the, the starkest
contrast, , I think from a creative

point of view is how long it, how much
longer it takes to make books, not just

to write them but also to make them.

, you know, you can, as a songwriter, not
that, You write a song in an afternoon

all the time, but you can reasonably
expect it to happen occasionally.

And in the modern, you know, if you
really want to, you could probably go

play it for an audience that night.

If you really wanted to, especially
these days, you could record it and

upload it on the internet that night
and get, you know, you're putting it in

front of the public, getting feedback
right away, if you want, as opposed

to a book, which is, you know, At the
very least in 18 months and very often

multi year commitment, , before anyone
even sees it outside of a very close.

, circle of people.

, and even when it comes out, you know, it
takes people a long time to read books.

So it's like, there's not the
performative, there's not like the, the

feedback, the quality of feedback that you
get from being a musician and a performer,

you know, you don't, even if you do a
book tour, you're not, it's not the same

as, as touring your record and playing
the songs in front of people and seeing

whether they cheer or go to the bathroom.

. So, so there's that aspect of it.

On the other hand, I would say my
experience in the publishing industry,

, has been a real pleasant surprise.

I think the seriousness Of people who work
in publishing, , not that not the people

who work in in, you know, on the label
side or anything are not serious, but you

do meet more, I think, chancers or people
who are not going to be in it for the long

term, or who are, you know, enthusiastic,
but naive, , you know, just because it

I think people for a variety of reasons,
but also, you know, the publishing

industry wasn't really decimated by in
the same way that The music industry

was in terms of its expectations.

So, you know, I'm most mostly been dealing
with people who have an office and have

jobs and expect to make money and know
how to put a budget together and stick

to a, you know, a publishing schedule.

And, you know, it's, it's much more
like deep, like working in a, in a real

industry than it just sort of like.

I don't know, put it
out, see what happens.

. Timothy: Can you speak a little bit on
why the publishing world has not been as

impacted as music and film and television?

Franz: Well, on a very basic level,
think about, you know, what, what

was the, what was the, the, the
catastrophic event for the music

industry as a money making entity?

It was, it was Napster, it was
digital file sharing, right?

It's the, the decoupling of the
recorded music widget from value.

, and that never happened with e books.

Primarily because fewer people
consume books on a very basic level.

Let's say you downloaded,
you know, a hundred books.

Most people do not read a
hundred books in a decade.

If not much less a year, but if you
downloaded a hundred albums, you can

totally, you know, it takes 45 to
60 minutes to listen to an album.

It takes most people a
week or two to read a book.

And so you can reasonably expect to
listen to a hundred albums or a hundred

hours of music, , pretty quickly.

, and there are just wait there by an
order of magnitude, more people who

listen to music than read books.

And so, , just both from the demand
side and the consumption side.

, it wasn't, , just the scale did.

I don't think made ebook piracy worth it
in the same way that it did for music.

Timothy: Yeah, I think as a consumer
also, like I was thinking about like

consuming music on like Spotify or
Apple Music where you might play one

song by one artist and immediately
jump to another song by another artist.

Like, I can't imagine how horrible it
would be to read books that way, like

pick up one book and read one chapter.

and put it down and pick up the
next book and read the next chapter.

That's just as an experience
that's kind of unsatisfying,

like supremely unsatisfying.

Franz: I think the people who read a
lot of books often do that, will have

like, I mean, I try not to do that, but
I definitely have four or five books

that I have bookmarks in at various
places, you know, because some of them

I'm reading for my work as a teacher,
some of them I'm reading for my work as a

writer, some of them I'm reading pleasure.

Timothy: Yeah.

Franz: And so you do
have to switch channels.

mentally to do that sort of thing.

, but you can also listen to music as
a background to your other activities

in a way that you can't with books.

, You know, people, I think the more
exact analogy is the way people consume

podcasts, , you know, people are taking
in millions of words of podcasts in the

same way that they take in hundreds of
hours of music, , but are not reading

hundreds of thousands of words of books.

, I mean, audio books to some extent,
but I, you know, again, an audio

book is a real time commitment.

You're talking about settling in for
20 to 100 hours, , as opposed to, you

know, 45 minutes to an hour of a podcast

Timothy: Yeah.

Franz: that you can do while you're
driving or while you're doing mindless

work or folding laundry or something.

, Timothy: mentioned earlier that
you're a teacher, you teach at Bard

College in both music and literature.

What kind of How does the career advice
differ that you would give to one

audience versus another like a music
student versus a literature student?

Franz: so they make a distinction here
between literature and written arts.

And so I'm actually
teaching in written arts.

The difference is one, one is written arts
is creative writing, like you're, you're

the, you're generating the material versus
literature is the sort of analytical side.

You're reading other people's
books and writing papers about

them and theorizing about them.

And so people coming out
of a literature track.

I mean, these are undergraduates, right?

So, but, but in, in theory, that's,
that's more of the academic side of

it versus the trying to go out there
and get your novel published side.

, yeah, I do.

People will come to me for meetings,
when they're about to graduate from

both, you know, and say, Oh, shoot, it's
spring of my senior year I want to go

be a musician, what should I do, I want
to go be a writer, what should I do.

, And in a way, the, the advice is
similar in the sense that they're

both financially irresponsible
careers that involve a lot of luck.

, and a lot of ambition and a lot
of masochism and a lot of ego.

, but that you have to, I mean,
my first advice, which is not

the advice I think that they're
usually ready or looking for is to.

Get a portable skill, learn a trade,
you know, so that you can live in

a variety of places and get work.

Short term work if you need to.

, you know, I was a piano tuner for a while.

That was something I could plop down
in a city and, you know, hang up

my shingle on Craigslist and, and
tune some pianos if I needed cash.

, people bartend obviously.

, you know, I think I always encourage
them to get basic carpentry and

plumbing, you know, if you can.

hang drywall and be a handy person.

, that's a great way to make a little money.

, copy editing for the writers, you
know, if you, if you can really learn

grammar and punctuation in a, in a,
in a, in a deep way, that's, you know,

a good way to pick up freelance work.

But it's not the kind of glamorous stuff
that They're usually thinking of, , you

know, I try to tell this, the, definitely
the, I mean, yeah, both of them, I think

more, more of the music students than
the, than the writers, but definitely the

writers too, is that if you're going to
live in a city, there's usually still a

physical location, whether that's a club.

Or a rehearsal space or a bookstore
that is the center of a scene.

And, and, and there's, there's really
a benefit to just starting to go hang

out physically at some of these places.

And one of these, one of them, one
of the things I say is to imagine

the scene that you want, identify the
scene that you want to be part of.

Right?

Is there a label that you really
respect that would be your

dream label for your music?

Well, where are they?

And, you know, physically,
are they in Chapel Hill?

Are they in Portland?

Are they in Tulsa?

Well, go there and find out where
those artists bartend or do live

sound and get yourself a job.

Like, insinuate yourself into the scene.

Even if it's just on a volunteer basis,
same with students who want to get

involved in recording, , this, I find this
is often the plan for students who want

to be, you know, rock pop band people is
that they think that they'll get a job.

at a recording studio for their day job.

, which, you know, one can, but
recording studio, those are

like huge time commitments here.

You're often there for 12
hours a day, six days a week.

And so that's not always conducive
to also, you know, hitting the

bricks as a, as a, as a performer.

, but doing live sound at clubs is
a great way, you know, and there's

always an opening people who know
how to set up mics and can, you know,

do five bands on a Monday night.

It's a shitty job, but it's a
job and then you're in the spot

and you're meeting people.

, but the point being to identify an in
person scene and then sort of start

hanging around is, is often a way
to, to, to get started, you know,

Timothy: Mm hmm.

What's something that you think you
do well in your own financial life?

Franz: maybe nothing.

I'm, I'm, I'm good at
my taxes at this point,

Timothy: Oh

Franz: uh, cause I learned the hard way.

I got audited in my mid twenties
and it was very traumatic.

And so now I'm a real.

pedant about, , keeping track of, and,
you know, if you're a freelancer, doing

your taxes is a real pain in the ass.

You know, if you're going to do
Schedule C's, , regardless of who's

giving you 1099s and who's giving you
cash, , , keeping track of, you know, so

you don't get reclassified as a hobbyist.

You know, it's, it's, My wife has
only ever had W 2s, so she could just

file the EV any time, and so this is
entirely my domain for our family, of

like, what percentage of the square
footage is the, is the home office,

and how much of the utilities can I
deduct, and, you know, what's the, you

know, the per diem rate for each of
the cities that I spent a couple nights

in, but how much of that do I want to
claim, so I don't, I'm not claiming a

loss every, you know, all this stuff
I've gotten, I think, pretty good at.

Timothy: Good.

It's an amazing skill.

I don't know too many
people who Take the time.

Franz: The one thing that I have never
really gotten good at that I know

a lot of people do is the turning
yourself into an LLC or an S corp.

, I, it's not, I've never been
entirely clear on what the advantage

is other than sort of protecting
your assets in case you get sued.

, so that's something I've never done,
which I probably should or should have.

Timothy: Do you want to talk about that?

Franz: Sure.

Timothy: Well, on the LLC tip for sure.

That's what it is.

If you're working and there's
a chance you might get sued.

Like that's the advantage.

If you're a one person business, you
know, I don't know that anyone would sue

you, but that's the advantage of the LLC.

The S corp thing is just a tax advantage.

, so an LLC is a.

Type of business organization and
an S corp is just a tax status.

That's all it is.

So you can be an LLC and fill out
this form to the IRS that says, I

want to be treated as an S corp.

And when you do that, a bunch of things
that you can't claim as expenses become

expenses and primarily your compensation.

So like, just as an example, if you
make a hundred thousand dollars.

As an LLC, that's all
treated as self employment.

And so it's all subject to self
employment tax, which is basically

the same thing as FICA, but it's
just called something different.

But if you make a hundred K and you're
at S corp, you can say only 50 of that

was my salary and only 50 of that is
subject to employment tax and the other

50 skips employment tax and the IRS
just says that you have to pay yourself

a reasonable salary, but they don't.

offer guidelines of what's
reasonable for different industries.

So when you're talking about the
difference between S corp and LLC, it

really, it kind of only makes sense once
you start making enough money that you're

bumping up into higher tax brackets and
stuff, but it's purely a tax decision.

And it.

It comes with a lot of extra
paperwork, like you actually

have to pay yourself payroll.

You have to issue yourself a W 2.

So it kind of only makes sense
for people if you're making enough

money where like having that extra
paperwork and the extra filings is,

you know, offsets the taxes you save.

Franz: So if I'm already writing off
most of my freelance income anyway, that

there's, there's probably no advantage.

Timothy: Yeah.

I mean, it really would just be, yeah, if,
if you're making your freelance income,

but then claiming a bunch of expenses so
that your taxable income is relatively

low, you're not going to get a big gain.

And if you're just doing
an LLC, that doesn't change

your taxes at all in any way.

So, you know, you as a sole
proprietor versus you as an

LLC, it's the same for taxes.

Franz: Good to know.

Thank you.

Timothy: Yeah.

man.

, Franz: If I have a re if I start
having really big years, I'll come

back to you for more advice, but I,
that doesn't seem likely at this point.

Timothy: yeah.

What's one thing you'd like
to do that is cheap or free?

Franz: I mean, reading books,

Timothy: Great.

, Franz: cheap or free and what, what's
cheap or free, you know, in this

Timothy: I mean, cheap is, is flexible,

Franz: I go, running.

I'm a baseball fan.

I was, I consume a lot
of baseball podcasts,

you know, the MLB dot
TV is not cheap, but.

, but it gives me a lot of joy
during the most of the year.

Timothy: there you go.

, . , I end every.

conversation with a question from the
person I'm speaking with and yours

was what's the best way for freelance
musicians to think about retirement funds?

And I thought this was an
interesting question because

there's a couple of different ways
to think about what best means.

And I think you could approach that
in a practical way of just like, what

are the nuts and bolts of what you do?

And then, , also kind of a
philosophical way, like how

should you even think about it?

, and on the philosophical side, maybe
this is like, , very basic, maybe not,

but I want to make the point that when
you save money, all you're doing is

taking today's income and using it
to buy better options in the future.

Like, if I wanted to buy a guitar this
weekend, I know I could find a guitar

for 200 bucks, but it wouldn't be any
good, or it wouldn't be very good.

But if I save my money for a few months or
years, I could buy a really nice guitar.

And so Saving for retirement
is the same thing.

It's just really long term and with
a, you know, with a long term focus,

like the rest of your life focus and
the government gives you an advantage.

If you use certain types of accounts,
like IRAs, you get a tax advantage to

make it a little easier, but when it
comes down to it, that's all you're doing.

taking today's money to buy better options
for yourself when you're 65 or 75 or 85.

And I think that is totally appropriate
whether you want to work forever, like

if you want to keep writing books for the
rest of your life, you know, you still

might want better options when you're old.

, And then on the practical side, I like
to think about it in terms of what's

the simplest thing that a person can do
and stick with for a really long time.

And I think a very simple plan you
can stick with for a long time.

Is going to beat a
theoretically better plan.

That's very complicated or stressful.

So like, just as an example, if
you're thinking about retirement,

that's inherently long term.

And the best thing you can do,
theoretically, best thing you can do

is put all of your retirement money
into stocks because stocks appreciate

the most over long periods of time.

And so that's the best, but of course.

That's really, really stressful
because stocks go up and

down a lot every single day.

And if that's too stressful for you
and it's keeping you up at night

and you sell all of your retirement
investments because you get stressed

out, like your plan is fucked.

So, you know, go for the simple
plan that you can stick with.

And if that's a hundred bucks a month
into an IRA, like, great, do that.

And if you can ratchet it up to, you know,
two hundred bucks a month, great, do that.

And eventually, if you get to the
point where you're like maxing out an

IRA, you can look at things like SEP
IRAs, which are very simple to manage,

but, have a little more paperwork.

And so that's just what I
would advocate for everyone.

Freelance musician, anyone who's self
employed is just start with the thing you

think you can stick with for a long time
and gradually work your way up from there.

Does

that answer your question?

Franz: well, for people who are listening,
I, I think for a lot of people who

don't know anything about money, who
are scared about money, the, the, you

can say IRA, like say someone wants to
get an IRA, where do, where do they go?

Who do they call?

Do they go to the bank?

Do they go to Fidelity?

Did like what?

Like on the very, like
that very first hurdle.

Timothy: Sure, sure.

Well, I'll tell you what I did.

, and I think this is, I would recommend
this to anybody who's in that position

of like, I just want to do it.

I don't know how to do it.

There are a few companies that
make it really, really easy.

Fidelity is a good one.

I have no allegiance to Fidelity.

I have no affiliation with
them, but they make it easy.

, Vanguard is another company
that makes it very easy.

And I happen to like Vanguard because
they were the company that pioneered

the idea that mutual funds should have
very low fees associated with them.

, now it's kind of commonplace, but at that
point, when they started, it was radical.

So, , when I started investing, I
literally,, I was on tour in Denver,

Colorado, eating lunch, and I just
looked up, how do you start investing,

and it was, you know, open an IRA, and
buy an index fund, and I just, I chose

Vanguard because they had no fees, it
was really easy to do, it was really

easy to set up an ongoing payment,
and , if you can just get your foot

in the door, your toe in the water,
whatever the analogy is, you can learn

how to do it better after that, but just
start somewhere where you can handle it.

And, and if starting with a small amount
of money, like even whatever, a hundred

bucks a month, if that's comfortable
and you can start there, just do that.

Don't worry if it's perfect, just do that.

And you can get better.

Once you start to get comfortable with it,

Franz: And do you think, so for example.

I've got retirement funds in a
couple places, TIAA craft places,

because, from my teaching.

, do you think there's an advantage to
consolidating your retirement funds?

Or is it fine to have some in this
thing and some in another thing?

, Timothy: this is just my opinion.

I'm not telling anyone out there what
to do, but if you are still working and

your company is still adding money to
your accounts, I think absolutely you

should keep those that said at some
point you might stop working for that

company and, and once you stop working
for a company, it becomes increasingly.

. Disadvantageous to keep
your money with them.

So, I kind of recommend having
some money with your employer, some

money outside of your employer,
if you have an employment program.

, outside of that, I think consolidate them.

So, if you've got an IRA at one
company and an IRA at the other

company, There's no advantage to that.

, if you've got an old 401k from
one business and a 401k at your

new business, there's no advantage
to having both of those just.

You know, consolidate, but in terms of
having some money with your employer

and some money, not with your employer,
I tend to think that's a good idea.

Franz: What if one's an old employer?

Consolidate it.

Timothy: I would, I would, especially
if wherever you're going to put that

money has no fees associated with it.

So like, let's say you have an old
employer for one K and you've got

an IRA that you own somewhere else.

And that IRA doesn't
charge you any fees at all.

You can do what's called
a direct rollover where.

Your 401k provider, your old 401k
provider sends all the money directly

to the person who holds your IRA.

So you're never.

, determined to have touched the
money, so it's not taxable.

And I think that's a
great way to go about it.

Franz: I'm just making a note of it.

This is something I've been meaning to
do for a couple years with an old job.

Just haven't gotten around to it.

Timothy: I don't see any advantage at all
to keeping money with an old employer.

It just becomes, the longer you're
gone, the harder it is to get

in touch with HR or whatever.

Just, I think there's
not really an advantage.

Franz: Okay, thank you.

That's my questions
about retirement funds.

Timothy: Yeah, happy to help.

. If people want to find
you, where should they go?

, Franz: franznicolay.

com is the easiest.

F R A N Z N I C O L A Y dot com.

That's , yeah, anything that I'm
going to be up to is on there.

, things that I've written in the past.

I have a newsletter, pianofighter.

substack.

com, but basically
everything is at my website.

People

Timothy: that a monetized newsletter?

Franz: can subscribe to it.

? Timothy: So it's set up that way.

Do you enjoy that?

Is that, is that a good model for you or
is that just something you're trying out?

Franz: It's something I'm trying out
right now that, I mean, the numbers aren't

high enough for it to be substantial
income, but it does give me every two

weeks rolling deadline to have, have
something, which is always useful.

Timothy: Yeah.

What are you, what kind of
stuff are you writing in there?

Franz: Variety of things.

, you know, I have, , a section of my
first book that didn't end up in the

book that I'm sort of slowly rolling out.

, stuff that has, , You know, some
of it's new writing and some of

it's writing from the vault, right?

So writing, writing the freelance
writing that ended up getting killed

or didn't get published or the website
has gone out of business and it

doesn't exist on the internet anymore.

Sometimes I'll republish that stuff.

, I did a remembrance of Garth Hudson
for the ringer a few weeks ago.

Where I had a 10, 000 word draft that
I cut down to a 4, 000 word draft.

So I used the sub stack as a way to
say, Hey, for the sickos out there

who want to read twice as much about
Garth Hudson, you know, here's the

director's cut, , that sort of thing.

You know, there's, there were questions
that came up on my most on the band

people book tour that I felt like, , The
Q and A's had made me think about.

, and so I used the sub stack
as an opportunity to sort of.

Consider, for example, you know, the
question of musicians unions, what

what kind of a worker is a musician.

Why is it so hard to get musicians
to organize in their own interests,

both psychologically and legally.

That's been a longer term project
I'm writing, I'm writing a long

piece for the baffler about
musicians, labor unions right now.

So stuff like that.

It's, you know, it's just
a, it's a rolling outlet.

Timothy: Fantastic.

Well, thank you so much for your time.

I really appreciate you being here.

Franz: Thank you.

Timothy: Yeah, man.

Enjoy your day.

Franz: Okay, you too.

. Timothy: I really enjoyed that
conversation and I hope you did too.

Franz and I don't know each other and
had only spoken once prior to this

interview, so it was really great to
hear his stories and get his perspective.

And once again, if you'd like to
hear more directly from Franz, you

can sign up for his newsletter,
pianofighter, one word, pianofighter.

substack.

com, or learn more website, franznicolay.

com.

I want to mention this in regards to both
the LLC versus S Corp that we discussed

and saving for retirement question.

. This was just a conversation
between two people and should not

be treated as financial advice.

Okay?

What's right for you might be wrong
for someone else and vice versa.

And if you have a specific question about
your situation, you can always drop me

a line at podcast at iselerfinancial.

com.

Alright, let's throw in some disclosures.

The thing we never talk
about is for educational and

entertainment purposes only.

It's not legal investment or tax advice.

People on the show, including yours
truly, may have interests for or

against any investments discussed,
so do yourself a favor and don't make

any decisions based on what you hear.

All right?

You have a money or finance question
you'd like answered in a future

episode, please send me an email
at podcast at Iseler financial.

com again, that's podcast
at Iseler financial.

com and Iseler is spelled I S E.

L E R.

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Thanks for listening.

I really appreciate it.

And I appreciate you.