The Thing We Never Talk About

Timothy Iseler: Let's
wrap this up here, ben.

I end every conversation with a question
from the person I'm speaking with,

you gave me a good one, a timely one.

Here's your question: AI worries me for
all the standard reasons, but it also

worries me because I anticipate the over
promise and overspending will reach a

point of bubble bursting correction.

Is there any sense, even a vague one
as to when that might happen, and how

to shield yourself from the fallout?

Hi, how are you today?

Welcome to The Thing We Never
Talk About, a podcast about

personal finance for weirdos.

My name is Tim Iseler.

I'm a certified financial planner and I
run my own independent financial advisory

business in Durham, nc, helping musicians,
artists, and other people with weird jobs

make smarter decisions with their money.

You can learn more at iselerfinancial.com.

and if you have a question about money
or personal finance, please send it to me

by visiting iselerfinancial.com/podcast

and I will answer it in a future episode.

Today I'm speaking with self-described
storyteller, Benjamin Percy.

Ben has written all kinds of things,
from novels to comic books, to

scripts and screenplays, and he has
a really cool new serialized project

coming out soon called The End Times.

The End Times is a monthly newspaper
subscription delivered to your door, or

your inbox if that's more your speed,
from a fictional post apocalyptic

world and features contributions
from none other than Stephen King.

You can order a physical or
digital subscription by going

to badhandbooks.com/preorders.

Again, that's badhandbooks.com/preorders

and clicking on The End Times by
Benjamin Percy with Stephen King.

I enjoyed my conversation with Ben, and
he shared lots of great perspectives

on turning apparent failures into new
opportunities, how sidestepping the

rules helped him get published as a young
author, and how balancing safety and

risk have helped him build his career.

All right, here we go.

Benjamin Percy: Hello.

Timothy Iseler: Hello, how are you?

I.

Benjamin Percy: I'm great.

How about you?

Timothy Iseler: I'm doing well, thank you.

Where do I find you today?

Benjamin Percy: I am in Northfield,
Minnesota, just outside of it,

Timothy Iseler: How's beautiful
northfield, Minnesota?

Benjamin Percy: Know, autumnal.

Timothy Iseler: Autumnal, good.

Benjamin Percy: The leaves are starting
to shift and, uh, you know, people

are juggling apples and taking bites
outta pumpkins and growing their,

their flannel pelt in anticipation

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, there you go.

Benjamin Percy: am I finding you?

Timothy Iseler: Oh, I'm
in Durham, North Carolina.

We've just started to
get the leaves falling.

I was outta town last weekend for
a conference and between when I

left and when I came back, my yard
is full of leaves all of a sudden.

Benjamin Percy: Oh, okay.

Are you one of those, uh, lawn obsessives?

Who that really bothers you?

Timothy Iseler: No, I'm not.

It might bother my neighbors
that I'm not a tidy lawn person,

but I'm, , I would say sort of a
naturalist when it comes to that.

I like to rake up my leaves
and then arrange them around

all of my plants as mulch.

And I think some of my neighbors
hate that, but it makes sense to me.

Benjamin Percy: one guy nearby who like
just stands on his porch with a rake

Timothy Iseler: He is ready.

Benjamin Percy: to attack
every leaf as it falls.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Cool.

Well, should we get started?

Benjamin Percy: I think
we can dive right in.

Timothy Iseler: Alright, let's do it.

Ben, what do you tell
people you do for a living?

Benjamin Percy: I tell
them I'm a storyteller

Timothy Iseler: Oh,

Benjamin Percy: I write across
genres and I write across mediums.

Timothy Iseler: uhhuh.

So you've published books, you write
for big comic book titles, you've

written screenplays, and you have this
upcoming project with Stephen King, which

we'll talk to talk about in a second.

So how much of that variety is just your
own curiosity and how much of it is trying

to make a living as an independent writer?

Benjamin Percy: It's both, I am easily
bored and writing, you know, a, a

screenplay one day and a short story
the next, and an audio drama the week

after that, uh, excites me, energizes me.

and I think that, you know, writing
in these different forms too has

challenged me to discover new techniques.

I never feel rutted aesthetically,
because, you know, writing comics

has made me a better novelist.

Writing novels makes me a
better screenwriter and so on.

But when it comes to being a
freelance writer, there's also the

question of survival and writing
in a, in a way that I guess you

could say diversifies my portfolio.

You know, it, it makes
good financial sense.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: So some of these,
and we can get into it, some of these

projects that I work on have, uh,
you know, sort of like short-term

earnings that are rather reliable.

And other projects that I take
on are big swings, big gambles,

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Benjamin Percy: and sometimes they
work out and sometimes they don't.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: And in any of these
industries, it, it always feels

like the bottom's about to drop out.

Sometimes the bottom does drop out.

For instance, in magazine writing:
magazines still exist, but not

in the way that they once did.

And journalism a big part
of my time at the desk.

You know, I was, I was
writing for Esquire, became

a contributing editor there.

I was writing for gq, I was writing for
Time, I was writing for Men's Journal.

And all of those editors who I
was once working with are gone,

Timothy Iseler: Yeah,

Benjamin Percy: and those
magazines have considerably.

That part of my life and career is over.

Timothy Iseler: Right.

Benjamin Percy: But other
things have filled that vacancy.

But, there's sort of like that
paranoia, it's always with me.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

That paranoia that it might
drop out at any moment.

Benjamin Percy: Yeah,

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

So you mentioned freelance.

Do you, you think of yourself
as a freelance writer?

Benjamin Percy: I, I guess
I don't, I don't think, I

don't think too much about it.

I, I was a professor in my former life,

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: it's been
about, uh, 13 years, I guess.

Timothy Iseler: Was that the last
time you had a conventional job?

Benjamin Percy: Yeah.

Yeah.

That was, that was, it was
tough to walk away from too.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: I woke up in a
cold sweat many nights, asking

myself, what have I done?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

So what,

Benjamin Percy: I had, I got tenure,

Timothy Iseler: oh, wow.

Benjamin Percy: with state University.

Timothy Iseler: What inspired you to,

Benjamin Percy: dream.

It wasn't my dream to be a teacher.

And teaching is something I
think I'm, I'm, I'm good at.

It's a great way of earning your
oxygen, you know, in, in the world.

Like sharing what inspires you with
others and, you know, getting them to a

worship at the same altar of 26 letters.

Like, I would not complain if
I went back to teaching, but

stepping away from teaching

the best financial
decision I've ever made.

Timothy Iseler: That's very curious.

So you can say that now.

Did it, how long did it
take you to feel that way?

Because I have to imagine when you
left that very secure job for a

very insecure self-determined job,
it probably felt dodgy for a while.

When did it start to feel like, okay, I
kind of, I got this, this is all right.

Benjamin Percy: Well, let me
first say that I am married

to a very practical woman.

Uh, And the whole idea of, you know,
recklessly of jumping away from, you

know, such a secure position as a tenured
professorship, you know, that that wasn't

something that was, , my decision alone.

It was a, a, a discussion that took place
over many years between the two of us.

And her standpoint, which is very
reasonable, is that I needed to prove

that I was making more money from my
writing than my teaching for five years,

and that we would be on solid footing
if we left the ivory tower, know?

And, so, uh, we did exactly that.

You know, we, we looked at our
finances, we crunched our numbers,

and, and this was assisted by a, a
book deal that was rather lucrative.

so it wasn't just that book
deal, it was the lead up to that.

And, and soon after I, I quit, I was
able to secure another, you know,

solid book deal, that sort of that,
and that's what really cemented my

feeling that made the right choice.

Timothy Iseler: That's great.

So you were doing both simultaneously.

You had the secure job while you
were testing out could I make it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Benjamin Percy: Be because, you know,
writing for a living is not, is not easy.

You

Timothy Iseler: No.

Benjamin Percy: it's if you're, know,
it depends on what you're looking at.

If you look at yourself as a short
story writer, it would be impossible.

Or a poet, it would be impossible
to be a full-time writer.

Novels, you know, of the majority of
novelists are not making a living a wage.

But if you're writing novels and you're
maybe writing in comics, and you're

maybe doing journalism and you're,
you know, writing for Hollywood,

is potentially, you know, if one thing
hits over here and then another thing

hits over there and another thing hits
over there, and I'm talking about this

over the course of a decade, right.

Then you're kept afloat.

Timothy Iseler: You mentioned that
some of your projects are big swings.

How much of that, how much of a risk is
it for you when you take a big swing?

Like are you ever putting up any of
your own money or is it sort of like.

Maybe you now you're, that publisher is
not as happy to work with you next time.

How does that work?

Benjamin Percy: A few
different ways to answer

Timothy Iseler: I.

Benjamin Percy: I mean, do
I ever put up my own money?

Sometimes, as in I just made a
short film directed to short film.

I applied for a grant

one $25,000 from the McKnight Foundation.

They were not looking over my shoulder
as to what I might do with it.

I promised in my, my pitch to them
that I would be putting all of

this money back into a production.

And, and paying the people involved.

And that's exactly what I did.

I didn't keep any of that money.

So I acquired $25,000.

I put it all into the filmmaking
process, buying props, hiring actors,

cinematographer, crew act, and, and
on and on and on in addition to, you

know, funding the submissions to film
festivals and, and whatever else.

it's amazing how quickly in the world of
film, that money just vanishes like that.

but the idea was it was an investment
in me potentially securing a, a future

as a, as a feature director, So that's
my money, you know, you know, going

up in flames and according to some.

But I, I believe in it as a, you know,
a, a way of investing in my career.

And we'll see if it pays off or not.

Even if it doesn't, it was worth it to
me because that was an itch I wanted

to scratch at this point in my life.

But in other ways you say, you
know, am I investing my own money?

I guess you could say that in a,
in a sideways fashion, because

I'm investing time, right?

And that time could be spent on something
where I know I'm going to make money.

You know, I could be more and more and
more Marvel ., But instead I'm working on

this novel that maybe nobody wants to buy.

Or I'm working on this screenplay that
maybe all the studios will pass on.

You know?

And sometimes those projects take months,
sometimes those projects take years.

But it's time.

And, and oftentimes what I, what I find
is that even if I get a no, an eventual

no, like pilot that got picked up,
you know, it, it, it doesn't actually

get shot, or that novel I thought was
gonna go the distance, Uh, you know,

nobody, nobody really was interested
in, or they lowballed an offer, I can

find a way to cannibalize the remains
of that and make it into a success.

So, you've gotta invest
in, in risky ventures.

It's just, that's part of
the freelance lifestyle.

Timothy Iseler: Is that confidence to
just try it because you wanna see it and

kind of knowing it's okay if it doesn't
work out, it's okay because you know you

still can get something out of it, is that
something that is sort of innate within

you, or is that something you learned?

Benjamin Percy: Probably both, but
I can point to several occasions

where I learned the lesson.

Going back to college, when I start, first
started off, I was at Brown University,

i'd come from rural Oregon, it was an
absolute culture shock moving to the East

Coast and, and being, you know, in classes
with who were sometimes literally royalty.

I struggled.

I felt like the hick that
my roommate called me

Timothy Iseler: Uhhuh.

Benjamin Percy: walking in the door.

That's the first thing he said to me.

Uh, I walked in with a pair of
Wrangler jeans and some shit

kickers on and, and he said, uh,
oh my God, I'm rooming with a hick.

Timothy Iseler: Uhhuh.

Benjamin Percy: and he was right.

But anyways, I struggled that first
year I was on academic probation.

I wondered if I should even continue.

And I sat down with my advisor.

My advisor was also one of the professors
who had failed me my first semester.

Timothy Iseler: Wow.

Benjamin Percy: And Brown
doesn't have any guidance.

You know, you can go in there
and take any class you want.

Uh, what I really needed was ,as a moronic
18-year-old, I need somebody to say like,

you need to take this class, this class.

I needed a core curriculum.

so I, here I am signing up for, you
know, a digital security class, uh,

and I don't even know how to code.

And, and that was the, that very professor
who, I sat in his office, I asked him what

I should do, and he said, you know, some
people just aren't cut out for college.

So he basically was telling me to,
you know, screw off and drop out.

And I, I walked out of his office
feeling choked with poison, but, but he

stopped me as I, as I went out the door
and he said, you know, it's weird that

you're doing so poorly because you're
essay was the best I've ever read.

Timothy Iseler: Wow.

Benjamin Percy: And so
that, that stuck with me.

And it was, uh, it was that summer that
I went to work for Glacier National Park

and I was escaping into the wilderness
and thinking I wasn't gonna go back.

But I was keeping, for
the first time a journal.

I'd always been best at English.

It just never occurred to me
that I could become a writer.

And I was keeping a journal, not in a dear
diary sort of way, but I was down ideas.

I was scribbling down images, I was
scribbling down poems and songs, snippets

that I was sharing with a, a waitress
at Glacier Park at many Glacier Hotel.

I was the gardener.

She was a waitress.

And, one night as we were watching
the sunset over the Rockies, she

said, you should be a writer.

And I said, okay.

And I went back to Brown and I
ended up graduating with honors.

know, I, I locked into that English track.

I.

I started taking creative writing classes.

I never looked back.

I went from academic probation to
graduating with honors, all because

I was, you know, able to find
that turn in the road, like find

a, a pivot out of the wreckage.

that pivot is everything
that finding that turn.

And sometimes you find that turn
because it's because somebody, you

know, helps guide you along the way.

That waitress, I ended up marrying her.

You know, another example of
this, I wanted to get into

comics and so I started pitching.

And I pitched to an editor at DC Mark
Doyle, he was in charge of Vertigo comics

at the time, I sent him a 30 issue pitch
for a horror series called Red Moon.

He said, you know, this is cool, but no,
you have no experience writing comics.

I'm not going to approve a 30
issue epic , let's keep talking.

My agent loved the idea.

She said, what if you wrote it?

This is prose instead.

So

Timothy Iseler: Oh

Benjamin Percy: I wrote it as a novel.

Instead, I sold it.

That was my breakout novel.

At the same time.

Here I am not giving up
with dc I keep pitching.

I keep pitching.

I keep pitching.

Mark Doyle ends up becoming the head
of the Bat Group, which I know is

a silly sounding job, but if you're
the head of the bat group, you're in

charge of Batman, detective Comics,
Batman and Robin, Harley Quinn, and

on and on and on all those books.

So I send him 47 pitches
from 2009 to 2014.

In 2014, he says, I have an opening in
Detective comics for two issues because

the artist is late, the writer's late.

I've got two issues.

What do you got?

And what I had was another failure.

I had submitted a screenplay all around
Hollywood and I really believed in it.

But you know, looking back, was a
rather foolish thing to put all that

time and energy into, and that it
was probably a $300 million budget.

You know, it should have been like writing
a story about a cabin in the woods.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: same sort of
overly ambitious mindset maybe

that made that comic pitch fail.

Red Moon, right?

But I really love the story and when Mark
asked me if I had anything, I said yes.

And I didn't tell him what it was, but
I took the main character out and I put

Batman in, and that was my comic debut.

It was a very auspicious debut.

It's Batman, which is the king in comics,

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: I was paired with
this amazing artist, JP Leon.

But that was failure, right?

It was a failure in the sense that I
had submitted 47 pitches prior to that

it was a failure and that I had, you
know, submitted broken down screenplay

that I'd refabricated into a comic,

Timothy Iseler: Yeah,

Benjamin Percy: but it launched
my comics career, and I became

a mainstay at DC writing Green
Arrow and Teen Titans after that.

And then I shifted over to Marvel,
where I'm now an exclusive writer right.

All, all of nos, all of these,
these failures, all of these moments

where you feel like you stumble,
like you can find a way to, to

salvage something from the wreckage.

This is just like.

One of the great lessons of my career.

You're saying, did you learn
these things, these lessons?

Yes.

You know, I, I've learned that all of
my successes almost come out of failure.

Timothy Iseler: that's really interesting.

I mean, it, to me, it speaks
a lot to loving what you do.

Because if you can somehow take those
failures and say like, it was still

fun for me, I'm not gonna give up.

'cause 47 pitches before you get your
first comic book, i, I would imagine a lot

of people would've quit well before 46.

Benjamin Percy: Sure.

And I mean, not an isolated
instance, you know, that I can

point to other moments like that.

You know, with a certain short stories
have been in it over and over and over

again, and getting rejection after
rejection until it finally hits and

ends up in best American short stories.

You know, like this, it has to
do with, with passion and love.

It also has to do with, you know, if
you stick with the business long enough,

you know that some decisions are not
based on whether something has merit.

Sometimes it's based on,

uh, something as random as, did we
publish another story about this place

or in this style in the previous issue.

Timothy Iseler: Right,

Benjamin Percy: You know,
I've, I've worked for literary

magazines, i've seen this happen.

walks in the room is
like, we're backed up.

We got the next three issues full.

Send a rejection letter to everybody
in here, and there's hundreds and

hundreds and hundreds of manila
envelopes stacked up around the

room full of stories and poems.

people got rejected for no good reason.

Timothy Iseler: right.

Benjamin Percy: Sometimes it's, you know,
uh, financial, like, we invest in this

project by this new dude because this is
a $300 million, you know, screen play.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: And he's a total unknown.

, Or, or, or, or there's all these reasons
that something might get rejected.

And, and so knowing that makes things
less personal, you know, you develop

that callous around your heart,
the size of a catcher's mit and

hearing no is just part of the deal.

Like no matter what, this isn't like being
a writer is about hearing the word no.

It's about any, any artistic
discipline that you pursue

And sometimes you have to, to
listen to that to some degree.

Like, oh, maybe I need to change
this or that, or find a new way

to, to think about this project.

But, but also being able to shrug
off like any self-doubt, negativity.

'cause it's just part of the game.

Timothy Iseler: So let's talk about
something that, to me as an outsider,

seems like things are going right.

You've got this new project with Stephen
King, and I have to imagine that at any

point in the last, whatever, 40 years
at least, any project with Stephen

King is probably a pretty big deal.

How did, what is The End Times
and how did that come to be?

Benjamin Percy: The End Times is a short
novel told in the form of a newspaper.

The newspaper is delivered to your
home to your inbox, uh, whether you

subscribe physically or digitally
over the course of 12 months.

Once a month you get a newspaper.

The newspaper is post-apocalyptic.

The idea is this, like, uh,
there's a woman named Mary Pool.

Mary Pool has not found her groove, say.

Uh, you know, in a post-apocalyptic
environment, you've got people who are

they're woodworkers, they're hunters,
they're farmers, they're whatever.

You know, they found a way to survive.

She's scavenging one day, this is 10
years after the apocalypse, and, uh,

she's scavenging one day and comes
across a printing press, and she

recognizes that this is the way she can
contribute to her community, this broken

community ,is by launching a paper.

And so it starts off as her, as she
says, basically talking to herself.

Uh, she posts this paper the town square
and it grows more and more popular.

More and more people want
to contribute their voices.

brings the community together.

It also saves lives, you know, there's
danger running through the background.

There's horrors running through
the background, and the paper is a

way of alerting people and planning
and, you know, gaining help.

And, and, and...

so by the end, it, it's not just
her, it's, it's a chorus of voices.

I describe it as being a little bit like
a cross between Station 11, if you're

familiar with that book by Emily St.

Mendel, and Our Town, the Play.

So yeah, Stephen King,
I reached out to him.

I, you know, I've known him, not,
we're not Best Buddies or anything.

Although, you know, I do think
of him secretly as Uncle Steve.

You know, he's a, he's a hero of mine.

He very kindly has
blurbed a few of my books.

I interviewed him on stage.

I was thinking of them for this project
because, well, a few different reasons.

One, this is basically
the world of The Stand.

Timothy Iseler: Uh.

Benjamin Percy: disease wipes out
the majority of the population,

but there are survivors and they're
building back, and this story takes

place during the building back.

You know, it's 10 years in.

There's that.

But there's also the fact that I read
The Green Mile as a serialized novel.

Some people might not realize this, the
Green Mile came out in installments,

and I would rush to Walden books to
get, you know, 50 pages or a hundred

pages, you know, as they came out.

And he is taken some big swings,
you know, he is, he is, he's

done a lot of experimental work.

Carrie, some people might not remember
this, but Carrie is a epistolary novel.

It's made up, you know, of and,
and newspaper articles mostly.

and then there's like books like,
uh, the Plant and Writing the Bullet,

which he released as eBooks, you
know, before there were eBooks,

directly from his website.

And so I, you know, I reached
out to him and I, at first, i,

I, I was too timid about it.

I was like, I can't bug him.

5,000 people are bugging
Stephen King a day.

I don't want to annoy him.

And, but I finally, I was just like,
ah, the worst he can say is no.

And I, I pitched him on the project
for the reasons I mentioned, and he

is like, yeah, that would be fun.

Uh, so he contributing
a byline to the paper.

You know, so I don't
wanna overstate his role.

He is playing a small role in this, but

Timothy Iseler: Yeah,

Benjamin Percy: generous one.

Very, it's so cool and nice of him
to be a, you know, a part of this.

And, uh, his byline, I, know, won't go
into too much detail, but it's a fam, it's

a, it's a byline that has, uh, Bachman.

So, the constant readers of Mr.

King are in for a treat.

Timothy Iseler: Good, good, good.

So it seems to me like once you get that
name involved, Stephen King signs on,

that a lot of publishers would be very
happy to be involved with this, but you

chose to go with a smaller, independent
publisher and use an unconventional

format, this newspaper format.

Can you share some...

i dunno, just how you ended up at that
decision in terms of the creative freedom

and perhaps also the financial upside of
working with an independent publisher.

Benjamin Percy: Yeah.

So I reached out to a number
of publishers with my agent

about the idea for this project.

Keep in mind, this is before
Stephen King was involved

Timothy Iseler: Okay.

Benjamin Percy: and all of the big
publishers and I published with

many of them said, that sounds
like a logistical nightmare.

Why don't you just do
it as a book instead?

But I didn't wanna do it as a book.

You know, I, I, I wanted to do it
as a newspaper in part because,

you know, I'm, I, I'm inspired
by my small town newspaper.

Like I read it cover to cover every week.

And I found that especially in
these times where international and

national news can feel overwhelming,
like it's very reassuring to me

that you can make an impact locally.

I'm reminded of that every week
when I read the Northfield News.

And my Northfield News
is written by one person.

I mean, there's a few people who pop
in here and there to do, you know,

a, guest column or to do sports
coverage, but the majority of this

paper is written by one person.

I think that's amazing.

And so there was that.

Was, you know, this want for
things that are just made,

made by people's hands like.

I know there's a digital subscription, and
that kind of goes against this, but most

of the people are subscribing physically.

They want a physical copy.

Right?

Maybe for the same reason that they
want a VHS cassette or a vinyl record.

Yeah.

I'm just, I'm sick of screens, you know?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: and, with the
rise Of ai, like that feeling

is, you know, even more profound.

So here's, here's this newspaper, and I, I
love the idea too, that everybody's gonna

have a different experience reading it.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: Maybe
you read above the fold.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Benjamin Percy: Maybe you go
from top left to bottom right

in a more traditional fashion.

Maybe you jump from this article to
page three and finish that off first.

Maybe you go straight
to the comics, you know.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: Everybody's gonna
have kind of a choose your own

adventure experience reading this.

And the reason that I approached
this press in particular is I, I had

them in my cross airs for a while.

Bad Hand Books.

That's how you can subscribe
to the paper, is go to Bad Hand

Books, their website and subscribe.

And, and, and they're,
they're a Midwest publisher.

That's one of the things that interested
me is I, I get really irritated with

the coastal elitism in, in publishing
and in, uh, production of film and tv.

So I love, you know, presses like Milkweed
and Grey Wolf, Coffee House press,

presses that are making a go of it.

And they're not based out of New York.

It's the same reason that I admire
George Romero so much as a filmmaker.

You know, he was, you know, he, he
had the opportunity to go to Hollywood

and he said, no, I'm gonna make
movies here in Pennsylvania, know,

and, has made an indelible impact
on culture as a result from those

living dead films in particular.

But anyways, there was that, there was
the fact that they were publishing great

authors like Larry Baron and winning
Bram Stoker awards and Mike Mignola,

the Hellboy author, an artist had
signed on with them and, and, and...

in just reaching out and querying them
casually, Doug Murano, the editor,

revealed that his mother-in-law
owns a small town newspaper,

Timothy Iseler: Oh wow.

Benjamin Percy: Waubay Clipper.

so we were able to use, as a
result of that, their facilities,

Timothy Iseler: Amazing.

Benjamin Percy: printing and distribution.

So it just felt so right
to pair up with them.

And since then, you know, that's
when Stephen King came on after that.

So initially I was thinking of this
as more of a boutique project, and we

were only gonna do 500 physical copies.

We'd have unlimited digital copies, but
just do 500, make it a collector's item.

You know, this wasn't a project I
was, I was writing to make money.

I was, I was writing it
because it seemed fun to me.

Um, and that's a mid-career
sort of stance to take as well.

Maybe not a, maybe not an opening
salvo as a freelance writer.

Um, but I'm able to take, like, directing
that short film, that's something

I'm able to do because I'm mid-career

Timothy Iseler: right,

Benjamin Percy: anyways, I, know,
brought Stephen King on board as

a contributor and he, as a result
of that, we had to open it up.

Like, you can't have Stephen King on
board and just do 500 copies of something.

So we found new opportunities
for printing and distribution.

Uh, it's still through the Waubay
Clipper, but the Ortonville Independent

jumped on board and they're, you
know, going far and wide with it.

unlimited press run now and, and
yeah, obviously that was a game

changer when King got on board.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, I bet.

Benjamin Percy: wanna just be like
annoying Stephen King and saying,

you know, it's like, you know, he
is, he's very, he's a super nice guy.

He is very kind.

He is doing this, you know, because he
is generous I don't want to then, as a

result, just be like, it's the Stephen
King project, you know, he is, he's

playing a small role, he's a contributor

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: for doing that,
he is, I'm, I'm, I mean, I, he's

always been my hero, but now
this is even more heroic of him.

And it's awesome that you have this
press that, you know, Doug Muranos talked

about how, like, he grew up and is doing
what he does because of Stephen King.

He grew up worshiping
the guy in his story.

So it's just so cool that now the
both of us are putting this out

with the king, you know, spraying
his graffiti on the bathroom wall

Timothy Iseler: That's
really refreshing to hear.

In my own career, which my background
is in the music industry, there were

a number of people who seemed, to me
were total role models, who seemed

like, oh, I could never bother them.

And when I worked at the courage to
do it, they were totally generous

and completely changed my life.

Not necessarily like, I am
gonna make you a star, kid.

But just taking the time to, you know, for
somebody who doesn't need to do that, to

do something for another person, I mean,

Benjamin Percy: you

Timothy Iseler: means so much.

Benjamin Percy: I mean.

It's a good lesson.

It's a lesson of being
a good literary citizen,

Timothy Iseler: Hmm,

Benjamin Percy: giving back.

Which I try to as often as I can,
whether it's volunteering to judge

something or teaching at a writer's
workshop, even though I don't teach

anymore, or passing along some
manuscript that really blew me away to

an editor or blurbing a book or, or, or

Timothy Iseler: yeah.

You mentioned a few
times being mid-career.

How do you think about success
at this point in your career?

Are you already successful
or is there a NA next stage?

Benjamin Percy: the goalposts
are always shifting.

You know, the, at first all I wanted
to do was publish a short story.

That's all I needed.

Just one short story and then you, that
story publish and I will, all I want is

to publish a short story in this magazine.

And then, you know, you, you want
more and more and more, and that's,

that's pretty standard mindset.

I've, I've checked off a lot of boxes,
you know, I publish a lot of books and

I'm working for Marvel Comics and, you
know, I co-wrote a movie and got to be

on set and I've sold TV projects and I'm
doing all sorts of cool shit, and I'm

incredibly grateful every day for that.

But I've got a whole lot I'd love to do.

and that includes directing,
not just a movie, a horror

movie in particular, you know,

Timothy Iseler: Oh

Benjamin Percy: of to write
and direct a, a horror movie.

you know, I'm, I've been out, uh,
in Zoom rooms over the past six

weeks, just pitching my heart out
on one, and we'll see what happens.

And if I can't sell it directly
to the studio, I'm gonna just

make the damn thing myself.

Whether that's through a Kickstarter,
Indiegogo, or by trying to find a rich

dentist willing to invest in the project.

But you know, there's, I, I'd
love to, I've, I've sold TV shows.

I've never actually had one made,

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Benjamin Percy: you know,
that's, that's another one.

I'm, I've, I've got a lot of, I've got
too many stories on the wall over here.

You know, I've got sort of my idea
factory where I, I tack up glimmers

in my eye, I guess you could say.

And, and they start off just as like
these little capsule ideas, and then

they get bigger and bigger and bigger.

And before long I have blueprints up
on the wall, and so I have, you know,

more that, more, more up on that wall
than I'll be able to write in my life.

But, but for me, it's, it's all about
like, challenging myself, enjoying myself,

and being able to food on the table, pay
my mortgage, put my kids through college.

I know I'm incredibly lucky to be able
to do what I'm doing and accomplish that.

So like when I say I want to do
things, I'm also, you know, even

though there's that, that hunger there,
there's also a sense of satisfaction

that I've been able to get this far.

Timothy Iseler: What's something
that you learned about money in your

career that you wish or would hope
that younger writers would know?

Benjamin Percy: Well, there's a lot
of different ways to answer that.

And I guess early on I came to a rather
mercenary mindset what I was doing.

There was no discussion of the business
of writing in any of my courses.

And, that genre, fiction was considered
sort of a polluted word and plot, you

know, we didn't, we didn't discuss
such things, uh, in fine company.

and I,

Timothy Iseler: I.

Benjamin Percy: it took me a
while because again and again

and again, I was in workshops
that were preaching exactly that.

But, but I realized, like I
was writing stories and reading

stories for the wrong reasons.

Like, I'd grown up on genre fiction,
reading stories about barbarians in woolly

underpants and robots with laser eyes
and flaming swords and dragons and, you

know, vampire invasions and whatever else.

Like, that's what made me turn the pages
so swiftly they made a breeze on my face.

And I came to this sort of recognition
that I was in love with literary

fiction, because when I went into
those classes, I was very ignorant.

I had never read James Baldwin or
Leslie Soko or Raymond Carver, or

any number of of literary writers.

I, I fell in love with craft.

I fell in love with full-bodied
characterization and glowing

metaphors and subterranean themes.

But I, I hadn't fallen out of
love with like rip roaring plots.

And so I came to occupy a space,
I guess you could say, as a, a

ghostland in between, which is where
authors like Margaret Atwood live,

or Cormack McCarthy or Peter Straub.

So I started to model myself more after
them, also to take on the mindset that

being commercial doesn't mean being dumb.

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

Benjamin Percy: And also there's
a a strategy that they're not

teaching you, at least in the
classroom when I was going to school.

Maybe it's different now.

But, there's strategy that, uh,
you know, can help shove you along.

Lemme give you one small example of that.

When I started submitting to literary
journals, which none of my professors

were encouraging me to do, but I started
doing it when I was an undergrad even.

And I got, I submitted
as a junior in college.

I submitted to the Atlantic Monthly

Timothy Iseler: Oh wow.

Benjamin Percy: and C Michael Curtis, who
was the editor at the time, he wrote me

back, you know, he wrote me these letters
that were on a very small piece of paper.

I imagined him as a very small
man with a very small typewriter.

But there was, there was cruelty
in his heart as well as generosity.

You know, he would write me letters
like, this is unrepentant artificial.

C Michael Curtis.

but I was talking to, you know,
this, this guy was reading my stuff.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: So I started, you
know, building up this wall of shame.

That's what I called it.

I'd look at it every morning.

I would have all these, you know,
rejection letters from the New

Yorker or the Atlantic Monthly, or
the Paris Review, and I'd stand in

front of it every morning, you know,
and be like, I'm gonna get you guys.

But I started to recognize as I was
submitting more and more widely, like how

ridiculous some of the requirements were.

Like they would say no
simultaneous submissions.

Okay, well, some of these
journals were taking six to

nine months to get back to me.

I'd probably still be waiting for my
first short story to be published.

So I, I developed my own like weird
system where I had an Excel spreadsheet.

I figured out what the most prestigious
journals were, this is my opinion, you

know, because they had appeared in Best
American or the push card prices, or they

had wide distribution or, or you know.

So I had like my top five and my next five
and my next five, these different tiers.

And I would submit five copies of
a story of the top tier for every

rejection I got from the top tier.

I'd send out five more copies
to the second tier for every

second tier rejection, five
more copies of the third tier.

So it was like carpet bombing,
you know, the industry.

And I was selling stories all of
a sudden, very quickly, you know.

And racking up by the time I graduated
from my MFA program, you know,

I had probably 20 short stories
under my belt that were published.

And then I started to
figure out contests as well.

So I was like, all right, 'cause
I'd worked for a literary journal

and so I knew, I had that insider
information, I was like, man, way fewer

people are submitting the contests.

Because

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

Benjamin Percy: usually had a fee
then are submitting to the slush pile.

So I'm gonna start submitting a contest.

So that's like an idea of
burning money as an investment.

You know, like I'm gonna submit to all
these different contests, spend 200

bucks, you know, and $10 submission fees.

And for some of 'em you also got
a subscription to the journal.

So I was like, all right.

Then I started winning contests as
well, you know, which at the time

I'm a total, I'm totally broke.

And so you win a thousand bucks
here, you win 5,000 bucks here.

It's like, that's for, at the time, for
me, that was life changing money, know?

And, and so I've just sort of all
from the very beginning had that, that

mercenary mindset where I'm trying to
figure out how can I make this work?

How can I make art, right?

But also be compellingly readable,
and can I also be smart with money?

And Invest in my career
and make this into a life.

Timothy Iseler: It's so, it seems
so interesting to me because you

mentioned that you were actively
discouraged from doing this.

So it's sort of like, not only going
against the trend, but kind of making own

up your own rule book about how to do it.

Like if you had followed the, the air
quote rules, like you said, you never

would've gotten anything published.

But because you, you just were driven to
do it on your own, all of a sudden all

of these opportunities opened up to you.

That, that, that just seems amazing.

Benjamin Percy: sort of thing where
there's an insularity to a lot of

academia, which, know, I enjoyed my time
in it, but there's an insularity to it

where, especially if you go to a place
like AWP, that's the Associated Writing

Programs conference that happens every
year, and of realize that these people

are all submitting stories to each other.

And reading other.

and I think it's great that
a professor doesn't have to

worry about the bills, right?

That, because sometimes, you know, if
you're, if you're a Joy Williams, if

you're a Ben Marcus, if you're, you know,
really doing some crazy stylistic stuff,

a Donald Barthelme, that doesn't appeal
to the mainstream, like you can, you can

do that and, and be supported and blow
up some minds, and, and that's awesome.

That's not the kind of
writing I want to do.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: So for me, I was
looking elsewhere , and, and part of

that was creating my own rule book.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

That's great.

What's something you think you do
well with your own personal finances?

Benjamin Percy: Well, I, it's
hard for me to say that in a

singular way because my wife.

And

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

Benjamin Percy: I are a team,
and she handles our finances.

You know, she manages everything, the
money, and pays the bills and everything.

We're in conversation about it all.

But what I do, you know, as, as a member
of this team is always thinking about

next in addition to what's
right in front of me.

And so, you know, I've, I, I, earlier
in the conversation, referred to this

as a sort of investment portfolio
and the diversification of such.

Uh, you could also think about it
in terms of gambling, where, you

know, you don't go in and you put all
your chips on one number, one color.

When you're at the craps or the
roulette table, you spread it out.

You spread out your chips.

And so what I, I think I especially
good at is finding that right

balance between safety and risk.

And recognizing that, okay, I
could just keep writing comics

and I could make this much, I can almost
tell you to the number how much money I

could make a year with, with exceptions
'cause of this series might sell

exceptionally well and I'll get a bump in
royalties or, or, you know, maybe, maybe

I get, um, invited to more conventions
and I make boom of money over these

three years from autographs or whatever.

But if I, if I had just focused on comics,
I could tell you pretty closely, almost

like a normal job, how much I could make.

And there would be, there would be a
summit, like there would be a point

where I, that I couldn't go past.

And instead I'm thinking, , over here,
like, okay, I'm in pitch an audio project.

I'm gonna do that audio project
because they will let me write

a TV series essentially for
your ears that is me alone.

know, you can't go to Hollywood and
be like, I'm gonna write a TV show.

they're gonna be like, you're gonna
assign you a showrunner and there's

gonna be 10 other people in the writer's
room with you view, and there's gonna

be a bunch of executive producers in.

You know, it's very much a collaboration,
which, you know, I'm interested in

that, but I'm also very interested
in just like grinding it out.

And so I have this idea, I think
it would be cool for a TV series.

So I pitch it as a audio series and I
get to write the whole damn thing myself.

And then I can take that audio series,
which is a low cost investment on the

part of a production team, whether that's
Wondery or Gimlet or Audible, that can

then be relayed into a TV or film project.

It's sort of similar to a comic.

If I wrote a comic, not for Marvel, but
for a place like Mad Cave where I have

two creator-owned series coming out,
I can then leverage that as sort of

like storyboards for a film treatment.

And then try to position
myself as a screenwriter.

So here I am over here doing
this audio drama right now.

I am over here doing these two creator
own series with the idea that maybe

they just remain as those, or maybe
this is embryonic and they actually

grow into something larger than that.

I, I'm juggling sometimes
way too many things.

I, that's one thing, a lesson
learned, like I should, I'm

looking forward to a day when I
do less, but now I'm doing more.

And, and, and I'm not burned out, but I,
I can see where burnout is on the horizon.

I'm not there.

but I'm taking all these swings
because I'm, I'm, I'm passionate about

what I'm doing, but I'm also like

that I'm in this privileged position,
but this privileged position could have

instantly turned to dust if AI comes
swooping in, if an industry collapses.

You know?

there's also just this, like I was
talking about it before as paranoia.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: So in terms of like
you, you have right now your steady

stuff, your Marvel stuff is steady
and predictable, or it can be anyway.

What's an example of something where you
took a swing on something and not only

did it work and it was a success in the
way you thought it was a success, but it

was just like turned into a much bigger
return than you could have anticipated.

Either you, whatever, you pitched
it as a comic, but then you sold

it as a whatever TV series and,

Benjamin Percy: a good example of that,

Timothy Iseler: yeah.

Benjamin Percy: earlier.

Pitches the comic, it was rejected.

It became a novel.

sold that for a good chunk of money,
then I sold it again as a TV show,

and I worked on that TV project.

It didn't get made.

But the thing about Hollywood
is they pay you even

Timothy Iseler: Yeah,

Benjamin Percy: get made.

Timothy Iseler: yeah, yeah.

Benjamin Percy: And also that's
how I get my health insurance.

And that's one of the things that's
allowed me to step away from teaching

is that as long as I sell $40,000
worth of material a year to Hollywood,

I get health insurance covered.

Timothy Iseler: Oh, wow.

I didn't know that,

Benjamin Percy: Yeah, so that is
a perfect example of what you're

talking about with Red Moon, where
it's like, it was this, and then it

became that, and then it became that.

And also still, you know, all these
books generate passive income.

So sometimes it's good
to take that big advance.

Sometimes it's good to take a
smaller advance and the smaller

advance turns around quick, more

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Benjamin Percy: checks
that arrive quarterly.

The End Times is a good example
of a project that felt like me

scratching an itch, felt like just
an experiment, and has since gotten

much bigger than I ever anticipated.

And part of that is I just, not just
Stephen King's involvement, but, , you

know, I just sold the audio rights to it.

You know, that's, that was an
unexpected chunk of money right there.

And the book hasn't even come out.

Right?

This is a newspaper.

We're eventually going to
put this into book form.

So, in a way, I was following
the example of comics.

I've said comics have, or, or
audio, or novels, or, right.

All these different things
helped me become a better writer

because I learned techniques.

But I, what I was talking about
then is Aesthetic techniques.

Comics in this case taught
me a marketing technique.

So I think the book industry is backwards.

The book industry
releases a novel for $37.

That is exclusionary.

They put out this big hardback,
37 bucks for 40 bucks, it's

getting worse by the year.

That's not something people impulse buy.

If you look at the way comics works, comic
books come out as floppies first, right?

So even those are getting more expensive.

It's could be 3 99, it
could be 4 99, right?

But I know they used to be whatever,
50 cents or a buck, but, but it's

more in the 3 99 territory these days.

that's something that's an impulse buy.

That's a,

Timothy Iseler: Right.

Benjamin Percy: know, that's
a coffee that's less than

a standard standard coffee

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: these days, if
you're putting whatever in it,

matcha or caramel and soy and
chocolate sprinkles and everything.

Anyways, you know, you drop
your three nine, oh, you're not

gonna think twice about that.

And then you build cheap

word of mouth

with the idea that a lot of those people
might buy the trade paperback when it

comes out and collects those five issues.

And then might, you know, 'cause
your audience keeps growing and

keeps growing, they might then
buy that hardcover omnibus,

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

Yeah.

Benjamin Percy: it has
bonus material in the back.

That might cost 80 bucks.

It might cost 200 bucks.

Right.

But the way in which they got there
is through cheap, wide distribution.

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

Benjamin Percy: and so I was
thinking about that with books when

I pitched my Comet Cycle series.

I was like, they have to
come out as paperbacks first.

And I want them to all come out within
the course of, you know, a year.

Now that plan got all screwed up
because of the pandemic and because

my publisher wasn't really listening
to me and they're like, well, we

have to have books for libraries.

And so they put out the hardcover and
the paperback and the, like, they, they

screw, they weren't listening to the plan.

I had a plan.

But, but anyways, with The End
Times, we're actually able to

execute this plan that this evil
plan that I've had all along.

And it's working, right?

Because I'm, we're giving you a year
of storytelling and if you do the print

version of this, it's, it's 36 bucks.

But the novelty of it, people are
like, I'll a year of storytelling

for 36, I'll, I'll pay for that.

Or the digital subscriptions
like 15 bucks, you know, so

it's barely a buck a, a story.

So in, in, you know,
people are investing in it.

And then later on we're gonna put
out this deluxe omnibus edition

that's gonna cost more and more
people will get on board then.

Right?

So.

I took sort of a long winding road to
get here, but there's an example of

me figuring out a different sort of
way to put out stories, recognizing

the times that we're in adjusting
to the market and, and trying to

draw lessons from other mediums.

And, and in this case it worked out.

It didn't work out when I tried
the Comet Cycle, you know, for, for

the reasons I, I already mentioned.

But it's working now.

Timothy Iseler: I think that's a
great impulse to get people interested

with a, with an easy lift before you
come out with the big deluxe product.

That's really cool.

Benjamin Percy: Yeah, so, I
mean, people need to try more

serialized storytelling with novels.

And I think at the very least, novels
should come out as paperbacks first.

Because I'm, I'm, I'm going to the store.

I just bought the Exorcist.

I bought a big fancy edition of
the, I already own The Exorcist.

I've got an old copy, it's beat
up, it's been read over and

over again, yellowing pages.

And I go into the airport bookstore
and they've got this beautiful

new edition of The Exorcist.

like, I'm gonna buy that for 35 bucks.

Timothy Iseler: Aside from just like
"we've always done it the other way",

why do you think more publishers,
big publishers don't do that?

Because it seems like, yeah, it costs
so much money to, to produce and

release books, but if you could put
out the paperback first, save some

money, see if there's the market there.

It seems like it makes sense, but it seems
like maybe people don't want to try that.

Benjamin Percy: Uh, yeah, mean, just like
with Hollywood has that fear of failure

Timothy Iseler: Hmm,

Benjamin Percy: they've got these
systems that they've built and.

Just like when I, my agent reached
out to them and they're like, oh,

he wants to put on a newspaper.

And they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

You know, that sounds really hard.

You know, they don't, they
don't like to take risks, but

they have, they have done it.

Like of the things that got me
thinking about this was, uh, Jeff

VanderMeer's, Area X trilogy,

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

I love that.

Benjamin Percy: released
that first as paperbacks.

It is a massive hit.

And I think part of it was
of the way it was rolled out.

Not, and it's also awesome.

But that is the rarest of examples.

Publisher publishing is not
like, that really worked.

We should keep doing that.

It's just a, a weird anomaly.

Timothy Iseler: Well, cool.

Let's wrap this up here, ben.

I, end every conversation with a question
from the person I'm speaking with,

you gave me a good one, a timely one.

Here's your question: aI worries me for
all the standard reasons, but it also

worries me because I anticipate the over
promise and overspending will reach a

point of bubble bursting correction.

Is there any sense, even a vague one
as to when that might happen, and how

to shield yourself from the fallout?

I will say this is a yes and situation.

Yes you are right.

There is a bubble.

It is happening.

It's not happening so much with
individual investors, what we would

call retail investors, it's happening
much more in the private equity markets.

But people are just,
it's like an arms race.

Like can we overspend so that
we can wipe out everyone else?

That's what's going on in
corporate America right now.

And it seems inevitable that some or
many of the products that are being

built right now will not succeed.

Either, either there's too many
entrants or whatever, you know,

a lot of them will fall away.

That seems inevitable.

So, yes, I think there's
a bubble happening.

There was just a thing
announced where like Nvidia.

The chip maker announced a deal with
Oracle to buy computing power, but then

Oracle would buy more chips from Nvidia.

There's this, like, they're just making
deals where they're all self-dealing,

you know, buying from each other.

So it seems inevitable.

As to when I would say the, the thing that
I would watch out for, that I am watching

out for is when you notice some of those
giant players, like a Microsoft or Google

or Facebook or whatever, if they pull
back on their AI spend, I think that's go,

as soon as one of them pulls back, it's
gonna be a signal that they're not getting

the return on investment they expected.

And I bet you'll, you'll see the
entire ecosystem start to collapse.

And I think it'll be like the.com

bubble where a lot of companies will
just go away and some will persevere.

As to the, the second part,
what should you do about it?

I think number one, if you're worried
about that, don't lean into that risk.

Don't buy a lot of companies
that are way overexposed to that.

Like right now, NVIDIA's been the, you
know, biggest growth company for the

last three or four years, and they're so
wrapped up in that world that if there's

any kind of a bubble, even if it's not
their fault, they'll, that will drop.

So don't, don't go courting danger
by looking for specifically high

growth, very tech heavy businesses.

That would be one thing.

And then another thing I would say
is anytime people are worried about,

is the stock market gonna crash?

Are we gonna have a recession?

I would say well, number one, don't sell
everything and sit on your cash and hope

that you, you know, you time it, right.

Don't do that.

But start acting now as if
the way you wish you would've

acted once it does happen.

So right now, if you're very stock
heavy, start edging that back and, you

know, increase your bonds, increase
your money market, that kind of stuff.

Because I don't want anybody
to just stop investing.

But I also think if you're, if you're
worried right now about the level of risk,

just dial it down a little bit right now.

And then another thing I wanna say,
which is a little more philosophical and

less actionable is, I think in the world
we have right now as it is, is there's

this idea that the more control we can
have, the better our lives will be.

So you can see this, I
listen to a lot of podcasts.

You can hear this with people talking
about all the supplements they're

taking and all the, you know, bespoke
medicine where they're getting their

continuous glucose monitoring just 'cause
they want to be healthy and whatever.

This idea that if we have more control,
that we will have better lives.

And I think for almost everyone
that's kind of an empty promise

because it's totally unrealistic.

So to bring it back to the stock
market, the idea that the natural state

of the stock market is up and up and
up, and that when it doesn't do that,

something is wrong, that is false.

The natural state of the stock
market is up and down, And on

average every six years, it should
go down pretty dramatically.

So in that sense, I would say
like there will be a bubble.

The stock market will crash.

And that's totally normal.

And every investor should plan
for that, you know, several to

many more times in their lives.

And invest with the idea of like,
what's gonna work over the next 10 or

20 years, not what's gonna work this
year or next year, because that's a,

that's a really hard game to play.

Trying to beat this year or next year
is really hard, but trying to invest

in broadly speaking things that will
be good for the rest of your life, I

think is sort of an easier game to play.

. Does that make sense?

Benjamin Percy: Makes perfect sense, yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Does that help
you with your existential angst?

Benjamin Percy: Uh, the paranoia,
anybody's been listening to this

conversation, they already know it.

The paranoia is never going away.

Timothy Iseler: Right.

just, the very little that I know
about using AI and how I've used it

myself, I can just see there's so
much disruption coming and that it

could even be to the degree of like
everybody at some point will be able

to use AI to make their own smartphones
and you know, apple will collapse.

I don't know why not?

Like, I don't know.

But barring the end of everything, you
know the world as we know it, if you

could sort of assume that will be an
economy in the future and that it will

kind of want to grow the way that it kind
of wants to grow now, I think you can

invest that way and probably be okay.

Benjamin Percy: Expand and contract.

That's the standard.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, it's the standard.

And, and for, you know, the study
after study after study that if you

could just, when it's contracting,
if you could just keep your head

on straight, you'll come out ahead.

And, and if you can actually
invest more when the contraction

happens, then you'll get way ahead.

Benjamin Percy: Yeah.

We've shifted to a slightly
more conservative model

with our in investments.

So, there's that, there's that
safety barrier there, right?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

It's not a bad idea.

I think if you're worried about
something, just, just anything, if

you're worried, what if there's a, around
here we get hurricanes every few years.

What if there's a hurricane
and power goes out for a week?

Well, now's the time to think
about a generator, not when it's

happening and everybody bought all
the generators, but ahead of time.

So yeah, if you're worried about it,
start acting as if it was about to happen.

Benjamin Percy: It's a funny example
because a tornado hit this neighborhood

a few years ago , and I've been waiting
for another one to come ever since, and

I installed a generator and tied it into
the, the house so that when the grid

collapses locally, you know, I just stand
to hook up a propane tank or pour some

gas in and can still stream some Netflix.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, there you go.

Cool.

Thanks so much Ben.

Benjamin Percy: Hey, thank you.

This has been fun.

Timothy Iseler: My thanks to Benjamin
Percy for speaking with me today.

I don't mind telling you that I am a big
fan of comic books and genre fiction,

so it was a real treat for me to speak
with him and learn more about his story.

Again, you can subscribe to
his new serialized novel, The

End Times, at badhandbooks.com.

It seems extremely likely that the
physical subscription will sell

out , so don't wait around on that one.

Okay, that's it for today.

I will be back next week with my
first listener mailbag episode.

I am honestly very,
very excited about that.

But first:

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