The Thing We Never Talk About

Timothy Iseler: Sam, as you know, as
a frequent listener, you know that I

answer a question of the person I'm
talking with . So Your question is,

could you define or describe the term
investing without using the word money?

Welcome to The Thing We Never
Talk About, a podcast about

personal finance for weirdos.

My name is Tim Iseler.

I'm a certified financial planner,
and I run my own independent financial

advisory business in Durham, nc.

This show, like my business is for
people who chose their professions

based on following a passion or a dream.

That includes artists, musicians,
authors, and anyone who chose their

path because they felt compelled
to do it, and not because it was

easy or safe or air quote normal.

Before I started my business, I spent
18 years in the music industry working

as an audio engineer in both recording
studios and touring with bands.

Today's guest is musician and
record producer, Sam Kassirer.

Sam is a longtime member of Josh Ritter's
Band, and we became friends when we

all toured together in 2015 and 16.

In addition to being a professional
piano and keyboard player, Sam also

produces records and owns Great
North Sound Society, his studio

in a converted farmhouse in Maine.

I really enjoyed this conversation and we
cover a lot of territory from how he got

started in music and recording, how he
thinks about what to charge or what to pay

the musicians he hires to play on records,
the importance of small habits in personal

finance and how getting better at managing
money helps you feel more at ease.

One thing before we get started, I would
love to do a listener mailbag episode.

If you have a question about money or
personal finance, please drop it into

the form at iselerfinancial.com/podcast

and I'll answer it in a future episode.

Alright, here we go.

Sam Kassirer: I mean, check this out.

I got an SM-7 here, man.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, you got
the, the pro podcaster set up now.

Are you at home today or
are you at the studio?

Sam Kassirer: I am, I'm in my home.

This is like my home mixing room,
which is the opposite of my studio.

It's a little more minimal and a
little bit, acoustically treated

Timothy Iseler: Oh yeah.

Sam Kassirer: to a farmhouse in
Maine, which is a little more wild.

Timothy Iseler: You don't
have much treatment there.

Sam Kassirer: I have some treatment,
but you know, it's a farmhouse

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: It's on purpose.

Like I, I don't love
iso booths for instance.

So, there are some rooms that are
treated with like some little baffles

like that, but, by and large the
rooms are how they sound, kind of.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

You don't like baffles, do you?

Or isolation, did you, do you have
people track in the control room or

is the control room the playing room

Sam Kassirer: I do sometimes do that and I
have isolation via like, amount of rooms.

Timothy Iseler: Uhhuh?

Sam Kassirer: have a five person band
all isolated in five different rooms.

And I have baffles.

I can move around, to
shape sound and stuff.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

But you're not trying to have like
the vocal booth with, you know,

zero decay time and whatever.

Sam Kassirer: I mean, I just
never liked the vibe of those.

They don't feel inspiring , you know?

always feel a little anemic or something.

Timothy Iseler: Cool.

Well, let's dive right in, sam.

What do you tell people
you do for a living?

Sam Kassirer: I usually tell people
I'm a musician and a music producer to

sort of give them option of response.

As I share the mentality that I
think a lot of people on this podcast

do where they don't really wanna
talk about what they do unless they

really need something to talk about.

They're, you know, at a
cocktail party or something.

But by and large, if I'm in a lift,
a lift to the airport or something,

it's, I don't really, because it
always goes the same direction.

The follow up questions
are always the same.

So I feel like if I say I, I'm a
musician and a music producer, it kind

of gives them a choice of path at least.

Timothy Iseler: What are the, the follow
up questions that you find annoying?

Sam Kassirer: Oh, well, yeah.

It's always oh, anyone I know,

Timothy Iseler: right?

Yeah, exactly.

Sam Kassirer: work with anyone I
know, and I always say, well, it

depends on what you listen to.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: And we go down that world.

Which can be fun.

I mean, it can be really fun
and I know people are usually

only being excited and I am very
lucky to be doing what I'm doing.

So I try to remind myself every time we
go through that same old script, you know?

Timothy Iseler: Uhhuh . is there a pattern
in terms of I how many people want to

talk about being a musician versus how
many people want to talk about production?

Sam Kassirer: there is.

Yeah.

I think with, with a musician, it's
more like, who do you play with?

And with production it's
more like, what is that?

And I have, you know, a pretty a,
a pretty chiseled answer for that,

which is basically I just help
help bands and artists make albums.

And then that usually leads back to the
same old question, oh, anyone I know.

Timothy Iseler: yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Sam Kassirer: It's all, but I also, you
know, I, I work in a lot of different

modes as a musician, and if I were just
to say I'm a musician and I've been in

the studio as a producer for the last
six months, sometimes I feel like that's

actually a little dishonest, even though I
do end up playing on a lot of the albums.

So I, I try to be honest about some
of the modes I'm in, but, you know,

sometimes I'm on tour for, for,
you know, give or take a few months

and I'm not in the studio at all.

So I try to lay it out.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

So I've been thinking about how to come
at this because you do have these two, two

very unconventional, unconventional jobs.

You know, both musician and producer are
unconventional, and you do both of them,

and you kind of vacillate back and forth.

Did music come first as as
in terms of playing music?

Sam Kassirer: Absolutely.

I, I started playing
music at a very young age.

I found it at a time where I was just
immediately, I just fell in love with

it when I was nine years old, really.

And never looked back.

It was always, you know, the thing that I
just, was a great combination of loving it

and feeling like I was pretty good at it.

And I rode that all the
way through college.

All the engineering stuff
really came later as a vehicle

to, to just make more music.

I started to have ideas about on,
you know, I would be a player on an

album and I would have ideas, but
they would depend on how they sounded.

And I would try to say like, oh, I
had this piano idea for this part,

but it, it would be cool if it sounded
like, you know, it was coming from the

other side of the room or something.

And through that, a few producer
friends encouraged me to sort of

step into that world, and I'd never,
it had never even occurred to me.

So it, it all just came from,
being in studios, being in bands

and kind of snowballed that way.

Timothy Iseler: When you first were
learning to play, was that piano?

Sam Kassirer: It was, yeah,
piano still, you know, keyboard

instruments still my main instrument.

I messed with other stuff, but yeah,
it was, it was piano and it was

even more specifically jazz piano.

Just really fell in love with the
idea of improvising and being able

to express yourself through music
and communicate through music.

Just like so mind blowing
to me at a young age.

Timothy Iseler: Tell me if
this resonates with you.

It seems to me that with any kind
of modern keyboard for the last,

I don't know, maybe even 25 or 30
years, if you're a keyboard player,

you need like a technical aptitude
just to understand your instrument.

You know, obviously pianos are pretty
simple, organs are pretty simple.

But if you're using any kind of like,
you know, Nord lead or anything like

that, you have to have some kind of
technical aptitude just to find your way

around the sounds and things like that.

Do you, do you agree with that?

And then do you think that helped
you once you were thinking about

how to record how to do that.

Do you think that was
a logical leap for you?

Sam Kassirer: That's a great question.

You know, I've never been very
good with computers and menus

that, that type of thing.

I'm always a very, I was always a very
tactile person, so even the, I effects

pedals and keyboards and stuff that
I have, I like them because they're,

they're simple and creative to use.

so, yeah, I mean I, in some ways yes, but
in some ways as I start working in the

studio with assistant engineers that I
can just tell they have a whole natural

talent and skillset that I will never
have for the deeper details of like, yeah,

menus and shortcuts and all that stuff.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: I, I am more quickly now
just to be like, can you just do this

or teach me how to do it because I,
you're gonna be better at it than me.

Timothy Iseler: Do you often
use an assistant engineer?

Sam Kassirer: Yeah, I would say
right now, I would say half or two

thirds of the time because it really
helps get to making music faster.

The place I have is sort
of a retreat style studio.

People come in and stay there as well.

And so day one, when you're setting up an
entire band and I'm, if I'm producing,

maybe I'm playing, it's kind of a lot.

So the setup is huge, but also just
having someone behind the desk that

you like, trust you trust with their
taste, but also they know your taste and

you've worked with a bunch of times and
you have this like, short language you

can use for back a take or an overdub
or something, it's just so efficient.

And I find that really fun.

Timothy Iseler: When did
that start in your process?

Like when you, when you first started
recording, was it just you doing

everything and then if so, when did you
begin bringing in someone else to help?

Sam Kassirer: Yeah, it, it's,
it's, it's a funny cycle actually

because when I bought the place,
it's, it's just an old farmhouse.

And I actually wasn't even
thinking recording studio.

I was originally living in a house
with a band mate outside of Boston

and we had tons of instruments and
then I met my girlfriend who's now

my wife, and we wanted to move in
together to an apartment in Cambridge.

And it's basically like, well, what
do I do with these three pianos

and two organs and two drum sets?

Mm-hmm.

I don't really wanna move them
to a storage space 'cause then I

know I'll never see them again.

So I.

I was pretty sure I would end up on
the east coast and decided to look

north in these build cool buildings
that I could sort of afford.

And found one that I just really loved
and filled it with instruments thinking

it would be a cool sort of music space.

Maybe bands could go there to rehearse
or write or just make some demos maybe.

And then pretty quickly it was like,
oh, it would be cool if there was a

set of speakers there all the time.

And oh, it'd be cool if there was, you
know, a couple preamps that just lived up

there and then just like quickly went off
the deep end into recording studio land.

And so, yeah, so when it turned
into a studio, I still didn't know

anything about engineering, so I was
actually producing having completely

different engineers up there because
I didn't know anything about it.

And then I sort of a, a abused
their knowledge repetitively.

And then I started working with
bands that definitely at that

time, you know, couldn't really
afford both me and an engineer.

So I started to mess with that myself.

And then I started to get, I think, pretty
decent at it and get very picky at it.

And that was maybe seven years.

And then in the last maybe eight
years, I've gone back to the interest

of hiring someone else so I can be
more hands-on with bands, play more,

a more collaborative experience.

And so it's been a weird
cycle starting with engineers

and then not for many years.

And then coming back to, to being
excited to hire assistant or

co co-producers, co engineers.

It's all really, really fun for me.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, so typically
then when you're working with a band,

like they're hiring you to produce,
and then are you, are you recommending

the other personnel or is it, you
know, is it part of the same budget?

In other words.

Sam Kassirer: It's, it, it varies.

You know, I'm, I'm to what, what
happens with me a lot on the extreme is

I'll get a, or, or I'll start talking
to an artist or singer songwriter or

whatever that doesn't, that doesn't
have a band, and I assemble an

entire band based on our discussions.

So I'll design a budget for them.

I'll talk to them about what players
I think appropriate, who I think

they would love, why I like certain
players, engineers, how many days?

That kind of thing.

When it's a, a pre design band that's
already a group, it's, it's basically

a, a simpler version of the same thing.

I'll say, oh, I think we should use
an assistant for this 'cause I'll

probably be playing live with you
guys a bunch or, you know, this month

there's sort of an acoustic group I'm
working with and I won't be playing with

them, so I'm just gonna do it myself.

That seems like the most
streamlined, creative way to do it.

So it's fun to change it up and see
like what just fits the, fits the

vibe and the project and everything.

Timothy Iseler: I'm gonna ask you the
same question for both of your careers.

Sam Kassirer: Oh, yeah.

Timothy Iseler: And let's start
with recording 'cause that's

what we're talking about.

When did, when was the first time
that you worked on a record and

it was an actual, like there was
compensation involved as opposed to

like, I'm just helping out a friend.

Sam Kassirer: Oh man,
that's a good question.

It was probably the first Josh
Ritter record I played on.

I went to school for music in
New York I was really lucky to

start touring as I was graduating.

Some of my professors totally got that
and understood that I was doing what

I was trained to do, and some of them
were surprisingly annoying with that.

But I was starting to tour with Josh
Ritter just as I was graduating school.

And I remember as I was sitting in the
graduation ceremony, I got the text

to say that they found the money to
fly me out to the south of France to

Timothy Iseler: Wow.

Sam Kassirer: On one of his albums.

That was at a studio called The Black
Box, which you may have heard of.

Yeah.

That, and that was, you know, to sort
of graduate and go right into that,

you know, I mean, it, it wasn't a
ton of money, but it, I felt like

I was on the top of the world.

Timothy Iseler: How did you get that gig?

Sam Kassirer: I got the gig
through Friends in New York.

The bass player in that band, Zach
Hickman, who I've now been friends

with for 79 years, I met him through
a, another really good musician friend,

Matt Douglas, who I think you also know.

And actually I was playing a lot of organ
trio stuff in college and Zach called

me as a sub for him as a bass player.

So we played

Timothy Iseler: Oh.

Sam Kassirer: festival in Vermont
where I was playing and there was

a drummer and it was Josh Ritter.

It was like a, it was like a folk, like
a folk singer songwriter, organ trio.

Totally strange, but I remember
thinking after that, like, I, I

hope they think that went well.

I'd really love to play with
a bass player with this group

'cause it feels a little strange.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: And they, lo and
behold, they did call me back

and, um, it all worked out.

Timothy Iseler: When did you first
making money as a performing musician?

Sam Kassirer: That was probably
when I was 11 years old,

Timothy Iseler: Oh, wow.

Sam Kassirer: old or so.

Oh, maybe that's a little young.

Actually, 14.

I remember my first job was working at
a sandwich pizza shop, and I was, you

know, slinging ham and cheeses and stuff.

And then, uh, one of my best friend's moms
asked me to play at their Christmas party.

I made like, whatever it was, like
a couple hundred bucks plus tips.

And I was like, holy
cow, that was awesome.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: And I just do that, you
know, coming fresh off like a 12 hour

shift and like greasy chicken or whatever.

I was just like, yeah, man.

I, I'm Jewish, but I can definitely
learn all these Christmas songs.

No problem.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah,
for that kind of money.

Sam Kassirer: Yeah.

Yeah, that was amazing actually.

I.

Timothy Iseler: when was the last
time you had a non-music job?

Sam Kassirer: Probably then.

I actually, after the, after the
sandwich shop, I worked at a pharmacy

for a summer, but I really tried
hard to, to, to focus on music.

'cause I, I just, you know,
anything I could do, even in school

I was in, in college, I was in
any band I could get my hands on.

And being in New York, it's
a perfect place for that.

So anything I could get my hands on,
I was trying to, to be, be a part of.

And then when I graduated, I had a clear
choice to either stay in New York and

basically tour with Ritter and get some
kind of job because it was expensive

in New York or move to Boston where I
could tour with Ritter and I knew another

guy who booked what we call GB gigs,
like general business sort of wedding

gig as a jazz musician, and I did that
for a couple years and it was great.

I was still only playing
music for a living.

I didn't need a lot, a
ton of money to do it.

And then slowly phased out the, the
wedding gigs when I was starting

to tour with other people and
be on other records and stuff.

And it was a great, it,
it worked out great.

Timothy Iseler: What about
for you as a producer?

When was the first time you had,
you know, maybe had someone up to

Great North, and it was not, it
was like, I'm producing a record.

You're paying me for it.

When did that happen?

Sam Kassirer: Yeah, that was probably the
first few were also probably Josh Ritter.

I

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

Sam Kassirer: messing around with some
instrumental music, on my own, and I

played it for him, I think, and he said,
well, we should try some stuff together.

And I remember thinking like, sure, but
I don't know anything about any of this.

Oh.

And he

Timothy Iseler: I.

Sam Kassirer: trusted me to, to mess
with it, have we had friends help, friend

Brandon Eggleston, who we still tours
with us sometimes, who I think, you know,

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: engineering for us.

So one of the first records
we made up there was with him.

There's also another artist named Langhorn
Slim that was actually the very first

album made up there at Great North.

and his drummer was a very good engineer.

So a few of the early ones were those,
and we, they were collaborations really.

You know, the full name is the Great
North Sound Society, but I still do

like the idea that it's a little bit of
a club and it's kind of a unique space.

So it's not, it's not like a studio you
can come in and anyone can use it and just

kind of be up and running in five minutes.

There's a lot of like weird
parts about not just the

studio, but the building itself.

And so I like the idea that it's a
little bit of a club that certain

people come back to a lot and get to
know and not like in, in any kind of

a elitist way, but just like, oh yeah,
I trust this person in the space.

They've, they've, you know, they've
been there a lot, you know, and if

there's anyone new it, it requires a
little bit of sort of, I don't know,

onboarding or tutorials or something.

You know, I, I went through a
phase of letting anyone use it,

and it, it was too stressful.

You know?

The studio has always been, know, in
terms of like a business model, it's

really always been most successful
when it's a tool for myself.

And when I try too hard to do anything
other than that, it just, it doesn't work.

Timothy Iseler: Well, let's
talk about that for a minute.

So, I used to work in recording studios.

I worked in a studio
with a very long name,

Sam Kassirer: Oh, which one was that?

Timothy Iseler: In Chicago, we just
called it Soma and everyone knew

what Soma was, but the name is Soma
Electronic Music Studios, and, it

would be abbreviated to Soma EMS.

So it looked great on the website and
everything, but when you're, when you have

to tell people what it is, it's, you know.

Sam Kassirer: Oh man.

I know Soma, like I, yeah, yeah, I've
heard that name a million times, but

I didn't know that that was the abb,
like the long, the short version.

Timothy Iseler: But anyway, so I
used to work at a recording studio

and it was still a pretty good
time for indie rock, but it was

a tough business even back then.

Like how does your business
model allow you to, I to run

a business like that in 2025.

Sam Kassirer: It's a good question.

I, I've like, I've had the place
for almost 20 years, and I've

experimented with lots of different
attempts at different business models.

For a while I had completely
different accounting for anything I

do personally and the studio, which,
which in theory makes a lot of sense.

But really, I think the place is
most successful when it, sort of

makes enough money to pay for itself.

And then, whatever I do is, is
a little bit separate, right?

So it, like many studios that start out
sinking $2 million in debt and gear,

that's just not how my place was designed.

I, it, it, it did snowball pretty
quickly, like I was saying earlier, but

it was only snowballing as quick as I
could afford a microphone that I was

excited about that could do a million
things or one preamp or whatever.

And it was really catered to what
I wanted to be able to accomplish.

So at the end of the day, I feel
like the studio rate is really, it's

a pretty decent deal considering
that the band can also stay there.

No, I don't have an hourly rate.

It's like a day rate that is basically
the same or lower than some Airbnbs that

can also house five people or whatever.

So what I'm trying to do, because I
was able to buy it at a pretty young

age, is have it have the cost of the
studio covered by studio rental fees.

And then I'm also, you know,
busy, not only there, but on tour

and, and, and in this room here
scoring or editing or mixing.

And if I try to do more than that, if I
try build it up too much on social media

or add gear just because I think I can
raise the rate, it just never feels right.

and it, And even in my minimal attempts
at that stuff, it's, it hasn't paid off.

But, but whenever I add something
to it that I think is a great tool

for myself, in ways that I think
artists could benefit from the

experience that has always paid off.

Timothy Iseler: You mentioned
that it's comparable to just the

housing that someone would pay
just to bring their band up there.

How have you thought about setting
your rates, you know, when they

need to go up or like, you know,
have you thought about that?

Sam Kassirer: Yeah.

It's really interesting.

I, and I think I'm in a little bit
of a unique, a tiny bit of a unique

position because I'm always, not
only being hired, but hiring people.

And so I'm always putting bands together.

I'm always having conversations about
you know, rates and all this stuff.

I have a huge within myself that
I never negotiate with musicians.

I don't because it just, I ask people
what their, their rate is, and I

can either make it happen with the
current budget or I can't, but I think

when people come back at you saying,
oh cool, can you do this for less?

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Sam Kassirer: just setting it
off on the worst possible tone.

You're saying that, you know,
really you're saying, oh, you're

not that valuable to me, but
you're this valuable to me.

Timothy Iseler: Right.

Sam Kassirer: And I only bring that
up because I think about that whenever

I'm setting my own rates, you know?

and this is a question I get
asked a lot by musicians too.

How should I set my rate?

And I can only by saying that,
you know, in school there was this

whole thing about the three And the
three s are music mates and money.

The general idea is you have to
have at least two of those things.

And my thinking since learning
the three M'S is basically a

more fleshed out version of that.

You know, if I get offered a
project and I'm suggesting a rate,

I ask myself a ton of questions.

You know, is this totally new ground?

If it's totally new ground I'm really
excited about, I'll do it for nothing.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: because it could,
because I could just say, oh,

now I've scored a film, cool.

You know, say that I did that.

If it's something that I just do all
the time and I know how it's gonna go,

and I don't know, maybe it doesn't,
I, I don't suspect it's gonna lead to

more things or exciting things, but it
also seems fun, that's another thing.

What rate would I be comfortable
with if this goes badly?

Those kinds of questions I,
I think about all the time.

But some things I keep completely stagnant
and I haven't changed them for years.

The studio rate, the
studio rate's $450 a day.

It hasn't changed for years,
and I probably should.

That's just what it is.

My mixing rate is a per song mixing rate.

It's averaged out if it's a solo song
or a song with an orchestra or whatever.

There's some things that just never
change, but if it's like, would you

like to come to Utah to play on this
album for six days, then it's a little

bit different 'cause it's a hundred
percent of my time for a little while.

It's, you know, a little more intense.

I.

Timothy Iseler: In terms of how you
price your time, are you sort of

weighing all of those factors The
same, regardless of what capacity.

So if somebody's hiring you to be a
musician, if somebody's hiring you to

work on their record, you're kind of
like, it's the same maybe equation isn't

right, but the same factors that you're
thinking about or is it different?

Sam Kassirer: Yeah.

You know, it, it is, it's
kind of the same factors.

I, I would, uh, when I'm at my place
in Maine, I'm there whether I'm just

engineering or if I'm engineering and
producing or engineering, producing,

and playing, I'm there either way.

I don't really have
like a menu of services.

So if you also want me to play, it's
gonna be another a hundred dollars

a day that just doesn't seem, feel
right 'cause I'm up there living

there all in on what I'm doing anyway.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: So in, in
that, in that regard, no.

But it, you know, it's like
you, you size it up and, and.

Think about all these factors
and , at the end of the day, it

probably doesn't fluctuate as much
as one would think anyway, you know?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

That's, it's an interesting one.

I do personally know people who are
very on top of, I you know, what

their rate is and, and like, if
you want me for this, it's this.

If you want me for that, it's that.

And I can see the utility in that
being, you know, really, really well

defined around this is this type of gig.

Like if I'm, you know, say for
example, if I don't have to

leave the city I live in, right?

But if I have to get on an airplane,
then the price goes up, right?

I could see all of that, but I also
feel like there's a ceiling on how

happy you can be or satisfied you can
be if you're always quantifying your

time in terms of a dollar amount.

You know?

Because, because then I think
you end up with this feeling

that you're wasting so much time.

I went through a little bit of that I
would say as a roadie, I never really

felt that in the studio, but when I was a
roadie and you get used to like a certain

rate and then if I would compromise on my
rate and then was not having a good time,

I was always like, ah, this is the worst.

Sam Kassirer: Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: You know?

Sam Kassirer: I mean when I say
think about if it goes poorly,

you still want to be happy

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Sam Kassirer: in some way and

Timothy Iseler: yeah.

Sam Kassirer: But No, and I,
you know, just the other day it,

it's pretty common for people.

I think they're only trying to be
facilitating, but when I am putting

together a band and I'm like, what,
what's the rate you're comfortable with?

It's a pretty common response for someone
to say, my rate is X, but I'm flexible.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Sam Kassirer: Okay.

I'm just gonna assume x.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: You know, or, you know, if
someone is more expensive than the record

budget can handle, I'll say, okay, I can't
really work with that, but maybe next

time, or actually, I only really need an
electric guitar player for two of the four

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Sam Kassirer: know?

But I, I really don't like being
like, okay, could you do it for, you

know, a hundred bucks less a day?

It's just like, it sets it off.

It's just like, off the
bat, you know, you're

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: somebody.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Totally.

Totally.

Is there any side of your work
that subsidizes the other sides?

Like does your playing allow
you to have more producer work?

Sam Kassirer: I would say, if
anything, occasionally the services

that whatever, like services that
I provide sometimes supplement the

studio costs, especially in the winter.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: In Maine.

But I try to justify that by saying,
well, also putting equity into the studio.

So it's studio costs, but I'm also
sort of investing in it as well.

It's not a rented space that I put a lot
of money in to build out and, and it could

go away, you know, all the rent is gone.

I also very recently have found
value in like bringing my little

family up there and hanging out.

So it has other benefits, but I would say
occasionally if anything is askew, it's

like, oh, cool, yeah, I mixed, you know, I
didn't go to the studio at all this month

because I mixed two records at home, and
no one else booked it, but that's okay.

Timothy Iseler: That makes sense.

What do you think, or what do you
wish more musicians knew about money?

I.

Sam Kassirer: That's a good question.

Well, I think, think some of
this rate discussions we've

already had sort of leads into,
some like confidence, self-worth

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

Interesting.

Sam Kassirer: and, I, in, in speaking
with a lot of musicians, I love

when people know who they are.

I just met with a guitar player
last week about a potential project

and I had a great time with him.

But we came to the conclusion,
conclusion that, as I got to know

him and his interest and style of
playing and stuff, he wasn't the right

guy for the for, for the project.

But I will keep in touch with
him and he knew who he was.

And I think, the, those things in
terms of money, knowing what you are

comfortable, you know, making charging.

'Cause no one loves to
talk about that stuff.

sort of go hand in hand.

Knowing, knowing what you're interested
in, who you are personally as a

musician, go hand in hand with things
like what you ask for money wise.

And if you are unconfident about money,
are you might be unconfident about the

guitar solo you played that I loved, but
you still want to do 17 more, you know?

It's like an, it's an indicator of
musical personality a little bit too.

Not always, of course, I'm sure.

But I wish more musicians thought about
that and valued themselves more, I guess.

And that would have
resolved in the money stuff.

In other industries, even other music
scene industries, there are, there are,

you know, union standards or that you
can just know and it's just so wild.

It's like for, for us it's,
so, it's kind of the wild west.

And you can talk to people, but
really you have to the information

that you can get and think about
what you are comfortable with,

Timothy Iseler: yeah,

Sam Kassirer: And worst case, that
means one person turns you down

because you ask for too much money.

That's a good, that's like
a good position to be in.

Timothy Iseler: So in your position
when you're putting the band together,

let's say it's a songwriter and
you're assembling the musicians, you

know what everyone's getting paid.

Is there any crosstalk there or is it like
each person has the conversation with you?

Sam Kassirer: Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: yeah.

Sam Kassirer: often I'm putting together
people that don't even know each

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Sam Kassirer: So, I, I have thought about
this a lot because I do think that in some

ways it would be quote unquote fair for
everyone to receive the same daily rate.

The same time, everyone is in a
different spot and everyone's ratio

of the three M'S is different.

And I don't try to negotiate with them,
I just let them decide the rate, you

know, I mean, if I can't afford it, if
the artist can't afford it, I say no.

But I, I sort of think that the benefits
of just asking people what they wanna be

paid and paying them, that a little bit
better than trying to, like say if it's

four people and some people are, have more
experience in the studio and some people

are amazing musicians, but less experience
in the studio to try and like bring in the

edges and, and unify that doesn't actually
seem to be as appropriate as just pleasing

people with what they wanna be paid.

If it's a band that plays together a lot,
then I go the opposite route and say,

Hey, how's this much a day for everybody?

Does that work?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

That's a good point.

Like somebody who maybe hasn't had
as much studio experience that just

being there might be really valuable
to them from an exposure perspective,

but also from a networking perspective.

Like if they're in the studio
meeting the other musicians for the

first time, like that could lead to
more gigs for them in the future.

Sam Kassirer: Exactly.

And it usually does.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Sam Kassirer: And so, if, if there's
a, a bass player that is in a touring

band who's super busy, and I really
want him to come up for this three day

recording session, he's excited about
it, but he doesn't like, you know, need

it or, or need it to turn into more of
that because he's so busy on the road.

And that's what he really likes doing.

If there's a guitar player who's just
graduating and she's really talented

and hasn't worked in the studio a lot.

You know, I just, you know, I want to,
I want to get her up there and into

the integrated, into the whole scene.

And they might be in different
positions financially, and that's okay.

I think.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Why not?

Sam Kassirer: I mean, I, again, I think
it would be less okay if I was trying

to negotiate either of them down.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Sam Kassirer: In fact, I have more
experience negotiating people up.

If I had this happen twice in the past
couple months, we'd be like, cool,

what's, what's your day rate for this?

And they tell me.

And I'd say, have to
knock that up a little bit

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: between me and you.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Is that because you just know
that what they're bringing in is

more valuable, or is it because
you know the budget supports it?

Sam Kassirer: It's kind of a combination
of knowing they're more valuable,

knowing what I usually pay people or
have the artists pay people, you know,

try trying to help if they're younger.

Just kind of trying to help, because,
you know, if they say, suggest a rate

that I think is just so off, I feel
like I'm helping a little bit by saying

like, Hey, for what it's worth, you
know, I, I hire a lot of musicians and

you're really great and I think you could
charge, I think you could charge more.

But you know that, that's just
me and the projects I work on.

I think it, that might be one of
many helpful experiences for them.

You know, maybe they're working in
some basement studio in Somerville

and they wanna work for 50 bucks a
day or whatever it is, I don't know.

And that's fine.

I don't, I don't judge that at all.

It's just like, even though
I, I'm cool with different

musicians having different rates.

I don't want it to be like wild
so wildly different that, you

know, it seems that unfair.

Timothy Iseler: What's something
you think you do really well

in your personal finances?

Sam Kassirer: You know, something I've
been thinking about a lot more in the

last, maybe even three years is value.

There's, I, I think that thinking
about value is so much more fun than

thinking about budget, which feels sort
of sometimes constricting like budget

sort of instantly gives sacrifice.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: Value is like
sort of similar to how I

think about musical ideas.

It's like you have the
first instinct, right?

And then you can be like, but
what if we did this instead?

Would that be better or not?

Let's judge it.

Let's like, let's try it.

It sounds wild, but let's try it.

And sometimes that's
the really cool thing.

And I think that can be the same
with thinking about eating out

or going on a trip or whatever.

I'm like constantly, probably to a fault,
always thinking about the alternative.

And I've had of experiences throughout
touring and studio stuff where

you just like reevaluate value
creatively and you end up putting

your money towards better use.

Timothy Iseler: What's an example
of something where you personally,

whether anyone else sees it that
way, you're getting more value

relative to the dollar amount.

I.

Sam Kassirer: Okay, so, well,
you and every other touring

musician can identify with this.

So you're on the road and if you're
in a tour bus, you wake up in a city

and my band, the, the band that I play
with mostly defaults to waking up and

going to the closest very nice coffee
shop getting, a very nice coffee and

a croissant and using the bathroom.

And over time, although I do appreciate
my band mates have taught me to appreciate

a nice cortado, I kind of realized that
my, and you may remember this, I don't

know 'cause you toured with this, but I
need my own time before I go anywhere.

I can't roll out of the bunk and
go outside and, and meet a friend.

I need like a second.

I need to have a coffee before
I even step off the bus.

And so I got into finding or
bringing an actual coffee mug and

having a coffee on the bus, in my
sweatpants before I go anywhere.

And.

It's such a small example, but it's an
interesting one I think because it suited

me more and it saved me like $12 a day.

You know, when you're touring and
you're young, $12 a day on a seven

week tour, that's like, you know, you
could put that into a savings account

or you know, an IRA or something.

that was sort of the first one for me.

But there's so many that
like that that I think about.

My, my family and I, I, I'm
always saying like, I don't want

to eat out 'cause we fucked up.

My, my wife is big in the restaurant,
bar scene for a long time and we

love food and everything, but we
don't wanna be like, oh, we just got

home, we have nothing in the fridge.

We were hoping we could make something.

Let's order.

Timothy Iseler: it's funny
that you mentioned that.

I had sort of the opposite thing
about waking up and getting off the

bus, which I realized similarly,
I like to have a lot of time, not

necessarily alone, but just quiet.

And so my, my work around was to just
wake up earlier than everyone else.

So I would either be the first one awake
or it would be like me and the tour

manager just kind of sitting silently.

Sam Kassirer: I remember that.

I think,

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

And I would make myself a bus
coffee and just, you know, whatever.

And then as quickly as I could, I would
get off the bus and often by myself, try

to go do, you know, find the nice coffee.

Sam Kassirer: yeah,

Timothy Iseler: I also had a rule for
myself that if there were more than

three people for any kind of plan
like that, whether it's going to get

coffee or going to get food, I was out.

Sam Kassirer: I love that rule.

I'm gonna steal that.

Timothy Iseler: You should.

'cause I think two people
can make an amazing plan.

Three people can always agree.

Agree.

And then you get the fourth
one in there and they're like,

oh, but I wanted Thai food.

You're like, we're not going to Thai food.

You know, you just ruined it.

Sam Kassirer: Yep.

Or someone's waiting for the

Timothy Iseler: Yes.

Yeah,

Sam Kassirer: it gets you, the whole
group gets blown up immediately at

the first like window of vintage shop.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's like the classic, never
follow a hippie to a second location.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, exactly.

What's something you've learned about
money in the last, let's say 10 years?

Sam Kassirer: I guess something I've
learned about money is that if, if

you start small, it can be, and if
you start small in terms of any kind

of saving or anything that feels more
responsible than what, than what I had

been doing, it actually is grounding.

It actually is like, it it's
settling and sort of reduces anxiety.

Like more satisfying than I
thought it would be, I guess.

And even if it's like a small
thing you do, it is, it, it, it's

like, doesn't feel as much of a
chore as I always thought it would.

Timothy Iseler: Is it sort of like,
because you're doing it, even if it's

not very much, even if it's very small,
now it's no longer on your to-do list.

It's like an actual thing you're doing.

Sam Kassirer: Yeah, it get into a habit
that maybe you don't even think about.

That's nice.

And you can check in with it every
few months or whatever and be like,

Ooh, I'm doing something good and
I haven't even been working on it.

You know,

Timothy Iseler: Yeah,

Sam Kassirer: that's nice.

But even, you know, reducing,
eliminating debt is like really

just, it's really fulfilling.

Not, you know, it's not just like,
okay, I got rid of that problem, you

know, it's like, cool, I did something,
like I'm doing something healthy.

It feels healthy.

I guess that's what I'm saying.

Timothy Iseler: yeah, yeah.

I often think there's a ton of crossover
between I health and fitness and money.

And people, a lot of people, if you're
talking about the health side of

things, people have like, do this health
routine for, you know, this gym routine

for four weeks and blah, blah, blah.

And, and that's probably cool for
some people, but if you're going

to go from like, I'm not doing
anything to now I'm doing this really

specific, optimized thing, it's, it's
almost impossible to stick with it.

To go from, yeah, from,
from nothing to the best.

But if you can say, I'm gonna go to the
gym two hours this week, like, okay,

you can hit that target, you know.

Sam Kassirer: yeah, yeah.

Something that seems doable to start.

For sure.

I remember when I first in the
habit of, first thing I would do

when I got home from a tour, or
you go to the grocery store because

if you don't, you're screwed.

You know, for like the next
week, and seemed doable.

It's a habit.

You go home, you get home from a
tour, you go to the grocery store,

you like put your laundry in the
machine and go to the grocery store.

And that was great.

And, and those types of,
types of habits are buildable.

Timothy Iseler: What's something that
you love to do that's cheap or free?

Sam Kassirer: I'm actually
not short on hobbies.

The two that come to mind that are
cheap or free would be riding my bike

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Sam Kassirer: Definitely not free.

I bought my first real
bike five years ago.

And there's the occasional accessory,
but ride that bike, right now I ride

it about a hundred miles a week.

Timothy Iseler: Wow.

Good for you.

Sam Kassirer: brings me so
much joy of body and mind.

It's like just enough exertion to get
a workout, but also force me to think

about only what I'm doing in that moment.

And I think that's so healthy.

I Also collect, I don't know if I was into
this when you were on the road with this,

but I collect vintage mug coffee mugs
on the road and sell them for charity.

Timothy Iseler: Gosh,

Sam Kassirer: I really

Timothy Iseler: I don't
know if I knew that.

Sam Kassirer: Yeah, it
developed 'cause I started...

well like I was talking about earlier,
really find a lot of comfort in having

an actual coffee mug on the bus.

And so I'd start to go to these Goodwills
and get coffee mugs for all the dudes.

And then I ended up with a
lot of coffee mugs, so I sold

them for charity at one point.

It went really well and I still find a
lot of joy in like, finding the good ones

and I sell 'em either on Instagram or
like on the streets of Brooklyn sometimes.

Timothy Iseler: That's a, that's
like a great way to approach being

a collector, because when you're a
collector, you end up with just, okay,

I've got a shelf full of whatever.

Sam Kassirer: Totally.

Timothy Iseler: a shelf
full of action figures.

Now what?

Sam Kassirer: Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: But if you can,
you get the joy of collecting it.

Plus you don't have to have the
clutter, you know, you, you get

to do something good with it.

Sam Kassirer: Totally.

And yeah, it's like, it's
another good of money thing.

It's like you don't have to
like to appreciate something.

You don't have to own it.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Do you wanna name check the
Instagram account where you do that?

Sam Kassirer: Oh hell yeah.

It's Magic Mugzz except instead
of the s it's two Z's at the end.

Timothy Iseler: Seems like it's a,
seems like it should be a weed account.

Sam Kassirer: totally.

Yeah.

Hey man, maybe that's a new
uh, avenue for magic mugs.

Yeah, I love it, man.

It's so fun.

I actually, I'm embarrassed about how
much joy I get from, like, finding the

good ones and what my weird parameters are
and sending them all around the country.

And it's really, it's really fun.

Timothy Iseler: Has there been
any surprises in terms of which

ones are, are, like broadly
speaking, which ones are popular?

Sam Kassirer: Absolutely.

Not as much online, but I
have a friend who also runs a

similar thing in Greenpoint.

And so she, her landlords allow
her to sell just on the street.

Timothy Iseler: Oh

Sam Kassirer: So on a weekend we could
just like sit outside and, you know,

sip some beers and sell some stuff.

And the younger kids who come by, the
ones that they're into, I'm, I'm, I'm

often surprised, I'm like, it makes
me, it's, it, conflicts me sometimes,

like maybe I should get more of
those that I thought kind of sucked.

But at the end of the day, I still
have to stay true to my, my own tastes.

Timothy Iseler: yeah,

Sam Kassirer: But

Timothy Iseler: that's.

Sam Kassirer: there's
certain things I don't touch.

I don't touch like new Starbucks mugs.

I don't really touch any, like
Disney animation kind of thing.

You know, I don't touch
like traveler mugs.

I don't touch beer steins.

A lot of people try to get me
beerstein saying It's a mug.

It's not a mug.

I have parameters.

Timothy Iseler: Oh, that's so funny.

This might be too much of a lift
as a question, but what's the best

financial decision you ever made?

Sam Kassirer: Oh, you know,

it, it kind of remains to be seen.

I think.

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

Sam Kassirer: You know, I, I got the
studio so fairly, relatively young.

I bought the studio before I was,
I, I was living anywhere full time.

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

Sam Kassirer: And the time
it seemed like a good idea.

And then I certainly learned
some lessons after that.

It was like, whoa, I'm, I'm in over my
head a little bit, but now that I'm, you

know, whatever, 20 years into a 30 year
mortgage, and our plan is just to move

up there eventually it's like cycling
back to feeling like a really good idea.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: It, it's
been a journey the way.

And I definitely don't think, you
know, buying property is hands down.

People are always like, oh yeah, I
should just buy a place 'cause then

all my money is going to of that.

And it's like, well, it's
not really how it works.

just because of interest, but
you know, the money you put into

these places that you're not...

that you're owning can, can really add up.

It's not black or white, like
owning is better, I don't think.

but I would put that on the list
of decisions that I feel like, I'm

not sure it was wise at the time,
but I think I lucked out on maybe,

Timothy Iseler: yeah, yeah, totally.

I talk, I wouldn't say all the time,
but I do talk to people about that

question of like, should I buy a house?

Is that worth doing?

And I think that's a super
interesting topic I wanna do...

i I actually want to do a little
digging into this and maybe write

a longer piece at some point.

Sam Kassirer: That would

Timothy Iseler: But, but I heard this,
I wish I could figure out where I heard

it -that's the research I have to do-
that until the nineties, nobody thought

about the primary home in the terms
of how people think about it now as

an investment of like, I'm gonna buy a
starter home and I'm gonna live in it

for five to 10 years, then I'm gonna
sell that and use that money to buy a

better home and live in that for five
to 10 years and I'm gonna sell that.

Right.

Nobody thought about your primary
residence as that kind of an investment

and instead it was thought of as
more like a generational investment.

Like, I'll buy this and I'll
live here the rest of my life

Sam Kassirer: Yeah, the

Timothy Iseler: and the

Sam Kassirer: home.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: right, and then
I'll give my kids a place to live

in for free or you know, then they
can sell it and use that money.

Right.

So, and it's interesting, you bring up
the 20, you've been there for 20 years.

'Cause I think that's really the
timeframe where you start to see why

it makes sense because your cost of
living, or I guess you're not living

there, but your cost of maintaining
that property is fixed in time.

And meanwhile everything else
has gotten more expensive.

So then it's like, if you can get 20 plus
years into a 30 year mortgage, like even

though you don't own it yet and there's
still debt, like everything about it

is cheaper relative to everything else.

And then if you can pay it off, you
know, like you, you two talking about

moving up there, you know, getting out
of the city or whatever, then you just

have this super duper low cost of living

Sam Kassirer: Totally.

Timothy Iseler: and that...

it's not like having a really big IRA
or something, but it is like if you're,

if you're looking towards your future
and your cost of living is fixed at

a really low level, that's amazing.

Sam Kassirer: Yeah, it's, it's, that is a
welcomed benefit that I didn't see coming.

But what you were talking about
before about the home investment

was a breakthrough for us too.

We were renting here in the Boston
area and we were starting to look

around at houses and we were just
like, we can't afford any of this.

And our realtor was like,
you should get a condo.

And we're like, oh, I don't
know if we wanna buy a condo.

And we had a breakthrough with him where
he was like, well, look, statistics

show you're not gonna live in this
first home for more than seven years.

Timothy Iseler: Uhhuh.

Sam Kassirer: So like, you can think
that's not true, but statistically you're

probably gonna move in seven years anyway.

So why don't you get this cool thing
in a cool neighborhood that's smaller

than you want, that you can afford?

then see what happens.

And we were just like, oh my God.

That it was, it was like
stress relieving, you know?

Oh yeah, cool, well let's do this.

And we did that.

And then sure enough, in seven
years it was too small for us 'cause

we had a kid and, and it was in a
neighborhood that had grown really

quickly and allowed us to buy a house.

and realistically is, I think,
yeah, I think it's really

valuable and I totally agree.

You should do a episode about that.

Timothy Iseler: yeah . 'Cause
like you said, it's not just, it's

not just the uh, mortgage payment
or, or even like the tax payment.

It's like I when you're a homeowner,
you're constantly pouring money in

that, unless you're keeping meticulous
books, it doesn't really show up.

So if you buy it for two 50 and you
sell it for 500, you didn't clear two 50

because along the way you probably spent,
you know, 75 to a hundred on Upkeep.

Sam Kassirer: Yeah, a hundred percent.

I think people come up to the
studio all the time and they're

in a very flattering way.

They're like, oh, you did this right man,
you just, you know, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, yeah.

Two weeks ago I had a water tank
break in the basement and it

cost me $3,000 to replace it.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, yeah.

Sam Kassirer: Like it's
not that black and white.

Timothy Iseler: Right.

Totally.

Or whatever, you know, if you own it long
enough, you're gonna need a new roof.

Like that's a lot of money.

Sam Kassirer: yeah.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: And that doesn't
show up on the mortgage anywhere.

Sam Kassirer: Totally.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: But it is like those,
those mortgage tools where you figure

out there's actually, I mean, I geek out
about it, but it's really fun how you can

say, oh, if I pay $122 more a month, I
knock this many years off the mortgage.

And that happens to be around this time
that I think I might move up there.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that stuff is really amazing
when you see that for an amount of

money that I think most people would
find reasonable, it's not like double

your mortgage or whatever, but yeah,
add a hundred bucks and watch how much

money it saves you and how many months
it shaves, shaves off your mortgage.

It's really, really kind of mind blowing.

Sam Kassirer: Yeah, absolutely.

I was doing that pretty aggressively
until I, Did a, like a, a whole renovation

project at the studio and incurred this
new, new debt that I'm battling with now.

But it's all good.

It's,

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Part of it.

Cool Sam, as you know, as a frequent
listener, you know that I answer a

question of the person I'm talking
with at the end of the podcast.

You gave me an interesting one.

I couldn't tell if you were like
trying to stump me or something.

Sam Kassirer: not at all.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah,

Sam Kassirer: I can, I can describe,

Timothy Iseler: no, no, no.

Sam Kassirer: That's it.

Timothy Iseler: it right here.

I wrote it down and I actually
wrote down my answer 'cause

I wanted to to be concise.

So your question is, could you
define or describe the term investing

without using the word money?

Sam Kassirer: So the
reason I, should, I, should

Timothy Iseler: Sure, yeah.

Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: justify I wasn't
trying to stump you at all.

I think investing has such this like
bougie connotation to it, and I think

people don't understand that they're
investing when they brush their teeth or

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

Yeah.

Sam Kassirer: don't brush your
teeth because you think you

might get a cavity that day.

Timothy Iseler: Right.

Sam Kassirer: And I really wish there
was like a, well, a better taught, you

know, growing up a better taught way
about uh, po policy with kids as it is

with math about saving and investing.

It's hard.

And being a dad, it's like, I try, I
do my best, I do my best talking about

it, but you don't just invest money.

I think you invest in yourself, you
invest your time, all this stuff.

But I thought from a, from a financial
planner, that it would be cool to

hear what your perspective on that is.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah, well, I, I don't
know how cool you'll find it, but this

is what I came up with is investing
is committing today's resources to

something that you think will generate
consistent positive outcomes over

a long period of time, or go up in
value over a long period of time.

And that certainly fits if we're
talking about investing money in

the stock market or something, it
certainly fits there, but it also fits

like, like your time and your energy.

Like say for example, learning a
musical instrument, like you have to

commit a lot of your current time with
the idea that in the future you'll

generate, you know, value for yourself.

And sometimes that's just
self-satisfaction and sometimes

that means you get to be a musician.

But, you know, I, I got my first
guitar when I was probably 14 or 15.

I.

And I haven't learned all that
much about playing guitar in

the last, let's say 20 years.

I haven't really like learned any
new techniques, but I still get a lot

of enjoyment out of playing guitar.

So I think that fits.

Certainly spending time with your
kids, you know, like you dedicate

your time, spend it with your kids,
like that provides ongoing value.

But then as they get older, as they
move out into the world, that's like

the, the thing becomes more of, not
that I'm not calling your kid a thing,

but like the investment of your time
produces something more valuable because

then you have a a, a human out in the
world who hopefully is well-formed.

Sam Kassirer: Yeah.

And I think there's so many parallels
of that with, you know, if you,

if you are a songwriter, like what
comes up on this podcast a lot is

like starting with something, right?

Timothy Iseler: yeah.

Sam Kassirer: that's manageable.

If you wanna write songs, have to have a
first song, you have to have a first idea.

You have to come up with that,
like, first thing that you can do

and break the barrier and stuff.

There's, there's so many
parallels between that, I think,

and, and the idea of investing.

Timothy Iseler: I think too, there's
like investing in the stock market or

the bond market, but there are other
ways of investing your money that

do provide a lot of ongoing value.

Like, like using your money
to pay down your debt.

Like you said, it makes
you feel better, right?

So it's not necessarily like watching
your, your retirement account go up.

It's like your life just feels
better because you're taking

something from today and using
it to do something that generates

ongoing positive outcomes for you.

Sam Kassirer: Totally.

I mean, I, I mean, and I bet there are
studies out there about this, maybe

you know about some, but I would not
be surprised if money is way at the

top of a list of things that, that
just stress people out day to day.

I know as a self-employed
person, it certainly is mine.

I, it's certainly at the top
of this for me, you know, so

Timothy Iseler: yeah.

It's huge for most people.

I, I don't like have statistics off
the top of my head, but certainly

when you talk about like, why
couples have problems, like money

is way, way up there on the list.

And the stress that people
feel, it's not income dependent

and it's not asset dependent.

Like there are people who make a ton of
fucking money who are stressed out all the

time and feel like they don't have enough.

Sam Kassirer: Totally.

Timothy Iseler: who literally
have millions of dollars who,

who are worried that they're,
you know, they're gonna run out.

Sam Kassirer: But, but the stress,
it, it's, it's manageable, I

think anywhere along that scale.

I mean, certainly people
that are really hard out, you

know, it's a different world.

But if you have a job, there are ways
to manage, I think, mental health

with, with how you manage your money.

And so yeah, they're,
they go hand in hand.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

I really feel like if you can start small
and build those habits, you take a lot

of that ambient stress off the table.

Sam Kassirer: Definitely.

And I think even you gave us some of
our first ideas about that, this idea

of like saving a tiny bit every day into
our savings account every single day.

Actually, it can't go on Sunday
or something, but, That was so

cool, and it's just something that
happens in the background constantly.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

I'm definitely doing
an episode about that.

I've already recorded it, but I don't
know when it's coming out and breaking

down what the annual IRA max contribution
is into like monthly, weekly, daily.

And when you look at it on a daily level.

It seems so manageable.

Sam Kassirer: Yeah.

I think, and maybe you'll touch on this,
but like, I think every, especially

self-employed people, are weighing
that against other necessary expenses

and like, okay, we, I have this, say
I have this much disposable income.

How do I decide how to ratio that out?

You know?

I'm still figuring that out myself.

Timothy Iseler: The way that has always
worked the best for me, always from being

a recording engineer to being a touring
audio engineer to the job I do right

now, my life right now, is to do the
saving first and like automate that and,

you know, I'm not trying to
like be dismissive of anything,

but you'll figure it out.

Like if you, if $5 leaves your checking
account every day, you'll figure it out.

And then at the end of the year you'll
say, you'll have saved whatever.

I'm, I'm not gonna do
that math in my head, but

Sam Kassirer: Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: well, let's
say $10 a day, so at the end

of the year you'll have $3,650.

And unless you're like, really,
really scraping poverty, $10 a

day isn't gonna wipe anybody out.

or like, let's say I was like, Sam,
you have to save an extra 5% a year.

You know, you'd be like,
fuck, how am I gonna do that?

But if your income went down
5% this year compared to last

year, you'd figure it out.

You know, you could do it.

Sam Kassirer: yeah.

I think the key to that is habits

Timothy Iseler: Yeah,

Sam Kassirer: Like first
doing something first and let

everything else fall into place.

I.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Love it.

Seems like a good place to wrap up.

Sam Kassirer: Thanks so much, man.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Thank you.

I appreciate you taking the time.

Sam Kassirer: So fun

Timothy Iseler: I,

Sam Kassirer: I love the podcast.

I think I've listened to every single one.

Timothy Iseler: ah, there you go.

Tell your friends.

Sam Kassirer: I will, yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Thanks buddy.

Nice to talk to you.

Sam Kassirer: All right.

Thank you.

Timothy Iseler: All right.

Big thanks to Sam for being so open
about discussing topics around both

personal and professional finances.

I truly believe that these kinds of
conversations are really, really important

because the things that Sam talked about,
saving, paying off debt, deciding how

much to charge for your time, these are
things that literally every self-employed

person deals with all the time,
regardless of what industry they work in.

And as far as I can tell, there just
aren't that many places for people to

hear stuff like this in a public space.

So thanks again to Sam.

All right.

That's it for this week.

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The Thing We Never Talk
About is for educational and

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in a future episode, please drop me a
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