The Thing We Never Talk About

Timothy Iseler: Brad, you, you sent
me over a question: there are so many

conversations surrounding music and ai.

What are your thoughts on the future
of financial planning and investing

in regard to aI and blockchain?

Hello.

Hi.

How are you today?

Welcome to The Thing We Never
Talk About, a podcast about

personal finance for weirdos.

My name is Tim Iseler.

I'm a certified financial planner and I
run my own independent financial advisory

business in Durham, North Carolina.

This show, like my business is for
people who chose their professional paths

based on following a dream or a passion.

That includes artists, musicians, authors,
and anyone who decides to turn a skill or

a talent into a career rather than pursue
more conventional, possibly safer careers.

You can learn more at Iselerfinancial.com.

But before I started my business, I
spent 18 years in the music industry

working as an audio engineer in both
recording studios and touring with bands.

Today's guest is record
producer Brad Cook.

Brad and I became friends when
we both toured with Sharon

Van Etten in 2014 and 15.

Brad was playing bass and I was
both the front of house audio

engineer and the tour manager.

Sharon's career has grown a lot in the
intervening years, but back then we all

toured together in a van, shared hotel
rooms, and for whatever reason, Brad

and I ended up rooming together a lot.

And it turned out that we like to do
a lot of the same things on days off:

go for long walks, find interesting
sites and museums and events to

visit, and eat at nice restaurants.

And we both loved to talk about
big picture stuff, new ideas, new

ways of looking at the world, and
generally philosophizing about what

matters most in life, in career, and
in this great wide and wild world.

And so we became very good friends
and in fact, Brad is one of my best

friends, and I'm super happy to
share this conversation with you.

We cover all kinds of stuff like record
production, ai, the real value of

financial advice, the emerging world
of blockchain contracts, and much more.

One thing I want you to be aware of: at
one point in our conversation, brad and

I got to talking about a mutual friend
who happens to work with both of us.

As a financial advisor and a
fiduciary, I am obligated to

protect the privacy of my clients.

So while I'm totally stoked when
my clients tell other people about

me, I'm not really allowed to
say, oh, I work with so and so.

So I had to sort of edit our
conversation to cut that out.

When we come to that part of
the conversation, I'm going

to insert this sound effect in
place of that person's name.

Okay, so don't be surprised
when you hear that sound effect.

One more thing before we get
started, I'd love to do a listener

mailbag episode in the future.

If you have a question about money or
personal finance, please drop it into

the form at iselerfinancial.com/podcast

and I'll answer it on a future episode.

And you can get my insights on money and
more delivered directly to your inbox by

subscribing to my Keep It Easy newsletter
at iselerfinancial.com/newsletter.

Alright, here we go.

Brad Cook: But I just feel like
there's something about where it sits

and like, especially Bob Marley and
the Wailers Records, where the bass

sits in the mix has so much powerful
harmonic information to me mm-hmm.

In a way that's not just like
dumb sensational bass or rhythm.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

But it's not quite Paul
McCartney harmony either.

It's a different thing.

It's like hypnotic.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

You know, if the bass is slightly
out of tune, everything above it,

frequency wise is out of tune.

Mm-hmm.

So it's like, even if it's just
kind of like in there low, it's

like defining what all of the
harmonic relationships are gonna be.

Yeah.

Brad Cook: yeah, I've learned
that the hard way a few times.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Sometimes you gotta learn it the hard way.

Way.

Alright, brad, should we get into it?

Brad Cook: Let's do it, man.

Timothy Iseler: Alright.

What do you tell people
you do for a living?

Brad Cook: I tell people at this
point in my life, I produce records.

It has been my main job
for the last seven years.

And I think most people have somewhat
of an idea generally of what that means.

Timothy Iseler: What do you think is
the most common thing people go for

if they're like, oh, you do this?

Brad Cook: Uh, Rick Rubin for me
because of a scraggly hair and a beard.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: what I mean?

Which I, under like, Rick's
a great reference point.

But you know, he does a different thing.

There's things about it that we, I,
I really appreciate about what Rick's

doing and I think Rick's speaking to
the most basic principle of producing,

which is getting outta your own way.

Okay.

And helping, helping facilitate an
environment for an artist to get outta

their own way and helping create the
circumstance in the env, in the room.

And then, you know, execute the
tech technical capture of what is,

you know, also part of the plan.

Timothy Iseler: Right.

So let's talk about this because,
I also used to make records.

Yep.

And there's lots of
different ways to do it.

Like, I definitely came out of the,
what I think of as like the Chicago

mindset where you are the engineer
and the producer and you like,

you're doing everything yourself.

But there's lots of other ways to do it.

Like Rick Rubin is not that at all.

Yeah.

Not like the technical guy
setting no microphones.

How do you approach it just
from a, like I'm going to work.

Like, what is it for you?

Brad Cook: I mean, at this point, you
know, I've, we were talking earlier,

I have a full-time engineer named Paul
who's been here for almost four years.

And so, you know, I'm, I have the luxury
of, of being able to work a certain way.

We, we work on a lot of music, but because
there's two of us, it just, it helps when

you're not doing everything, you know?

And I learned that when I was young,
I had a hard time delegating in life.

And that's been part
of the journey for me.

But producing has really been a
freeing space to practice that.

Because I, there's only so much you
can control and, and I feel like

part of that being the environment's
the thing I can help the most

with outside of just experiential
understanding of how to do the thing.

And paul comes with that.

Yeah.

So when people come in here, when, when
it's our day, most days it's just the

two of us sometimes, you know about half
the month we have an artist here . And

we probably work on, you know, six,
seven records a year, and then a number

of like, you know, one-off recordings or
eps or writing sessions, stuff like that.

But a lot of the time, yeah, it's just
a, it's, there's the two of us and we're

just sort of cutting up music and trying
to make cool stuff and not overthink it.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

What does having Paul here let you do that
before you would've felt like you couldn't

delegate and now can, can do the other
thing that you weren't able to Before?

Brad Cook: I can stay, it
allows me to stay objective.

I think part of this process
is, you know, for me, I'm, I

have the bug like everyone else.

Like if I'm here playing something
by myself, I'll play it 500 times.

If there's no one to stop
me, I'll still do that.

That's still fun to me.

It's really exciting.

But that's like a symptom of what it means
to sit in front of the speakers all day

and control everything is that like I lose
that perspective quickly because I become

a part of the fabric in a different way.

As much as possible at this point,
I feel like it's just a way of, of

staying transparent in the process.

When I was younger, maybe that
would've been more exciting to me to

have like a sonic stamp on something,

Timothy Iseler: something.

Brad Cook: now it's just,
yeah, I just try to, you know,

find a way to facilitate like
a great, a great recording.

I don't know.

Timothy Iseler: So I want to mostly
focus on you know, your, your,

your current iteration of Brad.

Yeah.

But, um, when you and I met,
we toured together, we became

friends when we toured together.

Yep.

Was Sharon Van Etten and I was tour
manager and you were the a bass player.

And at that point you were a
professional musician, you were also

doing some managing, also working
on some in a production capacity.

And before we kind of move on, like
what's the Cliff's Notes version of

how you got to there from like a kid in
Wisconsin to to professional musician?

Brad Cook: Cliff notes Is that by
the time I was a teenager, I, you

know, sort of fell into music.

I was obsessive as a listener.

As an appreciator and my brother
Phil, who I've, you know, continued

to make music with to this day, he,
he really sort of brought me into it

and we started playing music together.

We ended up joining up with our
friend Justin Vernon, who has since

gone on to become Bon Iver and
had a lot of success with that.

And, you know, the three of us spent
a lot of time together working on

music and trying to figure out, you
know, what our relationship to it was.

We were so enamored with
the creation process.

I feel like we were a band that could
have rehearsed or written new music.

I mean, we were, we would
rehearse and, and record far

more than we would play shows.

And we just were really compelled
by the act of making music and

arranging music and rearranging music
and you know, fucking with shit and

misusing gear and all that stuff.

And I think just that really feeding
those curiosities was really powerful

and it led us to North Carolina because
we were curious about a new music

scene in our early twenties and we and
we're so curious that we broke up, you

know, because there was more out there.

And you know, Phil and I started a band
called Megafaun with our friend Joe.

We toured a lot with that band for four
or five years and then called to quits.

But in that time, you know, I had met
Sharon Van Etten and we had met a lot of

people that we continued to play with and
you know, I got off the road, I worked at

a chocolate factory for a year and a half.

In that time I had met Mike from Hiss.

We started working together.

My brother asked me to produce his record.

Sharon asked me to go on tour.

I said yes to everything.

I quickly learned even when touring
in someone else's band, that I was

really not best suited for the road.

So I bailed on that, tried to
focus on managing and producing.

And I think I had a good, I was a good
manager in a creative vision sense.

I was not a good manager in
a organized fiscal sense.

So I, you know, that needed to stop.

So I stopped doing that, and
just the production stuff had

been ramping up all along.

Going on the last 10 years,
it's just sort of been a pretty

steady stream of, of action.

And so, yeah, eventually I just decided
it was best to just focus on one.

I was in my late thirties.

I, you know.

I was ready to be done with all
the other stuff, and, and this has

been a really great place to be.

Timothy Iseler: Did it feel like
you were taking a risk at all,

which sort of were like, production
is the thing i'm focused on now?

Or did it feel like this
is where it has to go?

Brad Cook: Uh, no, I felt like it was,
I was taking a risk when I quit music.

Like when I, when I went back
to work in my early thirties,

that was like humbling in a way.

But it also was the most
like, informative too.

I think it really reset a lot of things
to kind of work in a system again.

And, you know, with Megafaun, I felt
like, you know, working with BJ on

the recording stuff was very freeing.

Like I was saying earlier, that
that was really freeing in terms

of like recognizing the role a
producer can play on a recording.

You know, Megafaun did two records
on our own, which was really fun

and exciting and informative.

But we worked with this producer, BJ
Burton, who was my roommate at the

time, and that really leveled us up.

So I, I, I don't know, I sort
of had that in my mind, but I

never thought I would be a produ.

I didn't, I thought it would be
a job I would like, of course.

Who wouldn't, you know?

But I never, like, by the time
I was, Phil asked me to do it,

I think almost gesturally, and
then it just started to happen.

Like one person said it and it was like,
oh yeah, you should produce my record.

And then maybe what started more
local started to become more regional,

started to become more national,
started to become international.

You know what I mean?

Like, it just slowly happened.

And it was happening alongside doing
the management stuff too, which

made it hard to do both, frankly.

You know, because at the end of the
day, my heart's in making music,

it's in, you know, I understand how
all the, the business of it works,

which I know we can get into, but
like it's not where my head's at.

I'm not good at it.

You know, I didn't come from money.

I don't really understand how it works.

but I also understand this
way that music does work.

Part of that's always, at least
for me, made sense and not, I

don't, not like I have an answer.

I just like, I just know what to, like
when it's in front of me and I'm faced

with choices, like it's never scary.

It's always fun, you know, that,
that's a way to look at it.

But

Timothy Iseler: does money ever
come up when you're making a choice

about what you're gonna work on
or what the next thing is for you?

Brad Cook: I would say
at this stage, no Uhhuh.

I don't always work on things that make
money, but that's part of the, where I

feel like not being a capitalist or an
expansionist in that way of like, yo,

I feel like this job already pays well.

Mm-hmm.

But I'm, if I'm chasing money, that's like
a different version of this job to me.

You know what I mean?

That's like a different thing
that involves like really

chasing something like that.

And I don't, man, I try to tell
people up front, like, I have no

idea how to make like a radio.

We've had, I've had songs that have
done well in places, but I, it's not,

'cause we thought that was the, job,
you know, we didn't try to do that.

And, and it's not always the
songs you think are gonna do that.

So I just think we gotta make
compelling stuff that we believe in.

And that's the best you can do, you know?

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

With that in mind, like if you're
working on a record, what makes

it a successful experience you?

Because you mentioned some records don't
make money, but I would imagine some

of those are also really satisfying.

Brad Cook: Yeah, I mean, I, I just
think for me that , just always

trying to find heads, people that are
like intrinsically motivated by the

experience of making music, you know?

And I didn't active when I had another
job, you know, that was a really

fruitful time of making music again.

And it was fun.

You know, I played goofy shows.

I played solo shows, doing laptop
sets, you know, like I was having

a lot of fun just playing music.

And I think that's the
beauty of this thing.

And

with I think a lot of success, it's
hard to maintain those curiosities

I think for a lot of people.

And that's not everybody, but it's
just, I just try to find people that are

still hungry or curious and a lot more
common that's gonna happen on the front

lines of people starting or just getting
started in a career, or at a turning

point in their career where maybe they
haven't totally trusted themselves fully.

And that's really the goal, you know,
because the techniques there, the, it's

been there the whole time or something.

Mm-hmm.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Brad Cook: I just try to identify that
kind of situation and those people that

are like really serious about it and,
and write great songs and have a sense

of humor and, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Then I feel like we can make great
music and that always feels successful.

Timothy Iseler: yeah.

It seems like there's kind of an
element of like, if you're making

something that's personally satisfying.

I don't wanna say that the commercial
success will follow that, but that

the work will be better if you're
doing something that feels true to

yourself, you know, both for you,
for the bands that you work with.

And, and I have to say, like, you know,
for me also if i'm, in a spot where I just

feel like very authentically myself, it
feels so much easier do everything else.

Brad Cook: Yeah.

I mean, I, i, I I feel like
observationally, the starting with,

you know, my buddy Justin, that was
a really big learning experience

for me because, you know, he went
out on his own and started Bon Iver.

But his attitude towards it
and his belief in himself, it

wasn't like an arrogance at all.

It was just like, you could
tell he meant this one.

You could tell that this came
from a place for himself.

I'd been making music with him for,
you know, 10 some years at that point,

and nothing, even when he first showed
it to me, nothing ever felt like that.

That felt different to me, and you know,
it took me a while to get there, but

at least to understand where that comes
from and have a, some understanding

of that has been really informative.

And then since then, I've now seen it,
you know, in my own studio with like,

people that really show up and have done
the self work and are doing the self work.

And, and you can tell when they're
making, you can really tell when

someone's making something for themselves.

It's a different experience.

It is easy and it's not, it's
not bogged down by a lot.

There's like a peace about it.

Mm-hmm.

And almost every single one of those
records that I've personally seen go

down has gone where it needs to go.

So I think there's a lot
of truth in that, you know?

And I don't think it's
something you just arrive at.

Again, I think it's like a balancing act.

I think you're in moments
of that your whole life.

You know, you're in moments of that
your whole day, you know what I mean?

Like, there's moments you're like very
confident in authentic and there's moments

where you're questioning that, you know?

And I think that that's an
important part of it all.

Timothy Iseler: How do you help people
who are maybe on the verge of that?

Like they sort of know where they want to
go, but it's unfamiliar or maybe worried

that it's too vulnerable or something.

But you could see this is the thing
you need to get to, you need to

get over this hump or whatever.

Brad Cook: I mean, it's different
for everybody, you know what I mean?

Like, it just sort of depends what part
I feel like I, I if I think I observe

someone being fixated on maybe something
that I think is, is pulling 'em in the

wrong direction, I'll just try to find
ways to sort of reflect their desire to

not be that or not be bogged down by that.

And subtly, and sometimes less subtly.

But I think that's a really important,
just try to reflect people back, like, yo,

this is what you're telling me you want.

And it's kind of like this idea of like
showing people pictures of themselves,

but like trying to identify when you both
agree on what is a good picture of you.

You know what I mean?

Because me as the photographer, there's
gonna be a lot of different angles

that you're gonna see that are like
flattering of somebody, but based on

someone's self perception, they might
not always see those the same way.

And it's hard.

It's like the impossible thing.

And so.

I just think people that really trust that
and aren't as concerned that they're being

a perfect angle, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Hmm.

Brad Cook: It's not, it comes from
that, you know, and just being

themselves in the moment, and
just try to create an environment.

Again, it's like there's a lot of things
they do from being like stony bologna

uncle guy to whatever that just try.

I, you know, just trying to keep
an environment loose in the right

way, while meanwhile Paul and I
are trying to be four steps ahead

so things flow in a certain way.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

It's funny the way you describe that.

I think about that a lot too in my job
because when people come to me, nobody

ever talks to a financial advisor
because they're comfortable and confident

with whatever's happening right now.

It's always like , i want
it to be somehow different.

Even if that's just like, Hey, am I okay?

Right.

And I've been thinking about this a
lot very recently, that, that thing

that you mentioned of like, this
is what you're telling me you want.

Right.

As opposed to me saying, Hey, I've looked
and you're spending too much money.

Like framing it back of like,
you're telling me you want this,

and this is how you're behaving.

And like those things don't match.

You

Mm-hmm.

You know, you draw the conclusion of
whether this is the behavior you want

or should have different behavior.

Because I feel like when you have
the name advice in your job title,

it's easy to feel like my job
is to tell you the right thing.

You know, my job is to have the
instruction book or something.

But I, I really feel like a lot of times
like it's that reflective thing of like,

this is what you're telling me you want.

Let's look and see does the P match that?

Brad Cook: Yeah.

Yeah.

I think like, and it is simple.

I mean, it's a hard being alive.

There's so many things that are hard, you
know, this whole being alive is just hard.

But I think this, this self-expression
thing, I think when it's the more loaded

it is, I, I think people just have
this, the expectation stuff is just

hard not to bring into the environment.

In.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean?

But I do think that's the thing
that gets in the way of like being

able to really trust what you want
versus what you think you want.

You you know what I mean?

And to me, like the outcome
has to kind of end the studio.

I know that sounds funny, but like it
doesn't have, you know, but I think if

the outcome is that we all this aesthetic
calibration and, and dialogue goes into

the end result really feeling satisfying
to us at the end of this session.

Mm-hmm.

Do you know what I mean?

And, and, and limiting like the scope of
that expectation to that I think is a

good goal of like, let's just zoom, let's
just pull it down for a minute and let's,

like, before we decide that we really hope
this record hits the fucking back of the

arena, which is I want that for everybody
in any capacity they want it, I want

them to be as big or as, you know, how
they imagine it really working for them.

But I also think like in making art, like.

If you do a painting in a room, it's like
you really have to just step back and be

the one that loves it and knows it's done.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: Do you know what I mean?

And I think a lot about
that with like art too.

Like it would be, it's weird to imagine
a painting, like, I don't know why I

feel this way about that, but like,
I feel like by the time you give it

to a museum to hang, you're pretty
solid in your, your resolution of

what you're trying to say with that.

Yeah.

And I feel like records are the same way.

Like, you know, it's made in this
really cool vacuum and we should

celebrate that and we should try
to protect that because that's fun.

And to not consider the outside world.

And then when we're done, we should
try to be as 100 as we can about

everything and then stand back and
be like, cool, let's ship this off

and let, let the world decide now.

Yeah.

But we know how we feel.

You know, and that, you know, back to
the success thing earlier, it all sort of

feeds into the same thing of like, it's
an abstract way of talking about it, but

it really isn't, I think it brings the
goals to a much more manageable place.

Mm-hmm.

Probably, you know, very similar threads
to finances of like, well try not to think

about always the entirety of your life
when you're making financial choices.

Let's think about like,
scale it down, you know?

And is there ways in which
you do that for people?

Like, do you think about it like
when someone comes to you, do

you build, you know, like a six
month, a one year, a five year?

You know what I mean?

Like you can build it out incrementally
in a way that helps people embrace,

like the short term understanding of
their finances 'cause for me personally,

I still check out when people talk
to me about retirement stuff, as

my eyes are like the possum in Mr.

Fox.

Do you know what I mean?

Like.

The I'm, I'm gone.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

I think because I'm a career changer
and I'm an industry outsider, I

think I'm pretty comfortable giving
up on, or, or maybe that's the wrong

way to say it, but not a adopting
orthodoxy in my industry that other

people just kind of, for granted,

Brad Cook: hell yeah, tim.

Timothy Iseler: Like this is, this
is very inside baseball for financial

planners where there's the idea of what
is a financial plan is a comprehensive,

covers everything in your whole life,
basically to the end of your life.

Right.

So I think a lot of financial planners
have this idea that the thing they

have to deliver is like the blueprint
of what you need to do the next 30

years of your life so that you know,
whatever you say you're gonna spend

in retirement that you're able to do.

And I feel like what I want to do
more is like, let's get you pointed in

the right direction and make it easy
to make the decisions that are gonna

keep you pointed in the direction.

Because forget about 30 years from now,
like 30 months from now, who the fuck

knows what's going on in the world?

Who the fuck knows what's
going on in your life?

Yeah.

You know, I work with a lot of
people, musicians, artists, and

roadies, and people with weird jobs.

But it's like everyone, like people who
have the, who have made only responsible

solid decisions, they still lose
their jobs, they still get divorced.

They have you know, kids when
they didn't expect to, people

die when they didn't expect to.

So I kind of feel like it's bullshit and
in a lot of ways disingenuous to make

a plan to like, okay, when you are 75,
here's what you need to start doing.

Mm-hmm.

I think it's like selling this false
sense of certainty that nobody has.

And then also built into the
thing is like, and by the way,

when something changes, come
back to me and we'll update it.

Right?

Yeah.

So if I'm telling you, here's the plan
for the entire rest of your life, but

if anything changes the plan's no good.

Like the plan's no good.

So anyway, to, to get to your question,
what I really focus on, is let's limit it

to like, what three things do you want do?

If you have more than three priorities,
you don't have any priorities.

Yeah.

Know, someone with 10 goals
doesn't have any goals.

Goals, it's too much.

Yep.

So what are the three
things you want to do?

Let's establish a baseline of
like, where are you right now?

And you understand like this is
your financial picture right now.

And then when I'm done working with
someone, what I want is for them to have

a list of things they can do the next
like three or six months, to make sure

they're pointed in the right direction.

And a lot of times for a lot of people,
it doesn't have to be complicated.

It's kind of like if you can stick
with this for the next 10 years,

you're kind of cool, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

And if things start to go off the
rails or, or whatever, you get a big

raise, you lose job, whatever, like,
okay, then you need to reassess.

But like if I'm telling someone
this is how much cash you should

have, like start saving that much.

When they're done saving
that much cash, that's cool.

That's great.

You did a great job.

That's enough of a goal for
the work we do together.

Brad Cook: Yeah.

I think that that's cool, man.

That makes, I appreciate that.

I appreciate you as an outsider, frankly,
coming into this, I felt like in the

world of like finance and mental health

Timothy Iseler: Mm,

Brad Cook: artists, people that
have an experience, you know,

we both really connected touring
with our friend Sharon Van Etten.

You know, Sharon's someone that continues
to talk about becoming a therapist

when she's in her fifties, when she
wants to kind of be done with music or

take along extended break from music.

Sharon, be an incredible therapist.

And I think about that a lot with
like, where to put sort of the aging,

just like the, the aging culture
of like gig musicians and sort of

where to put some of that experience.

For people like you and I, I think
it's manifested in different places.

You, you know, but I think we both are
working in service of like the, the

people we believe in and the things
we believe in, you know, and you

choosing to sort of focus on the, the
weirdos of finance, because I don't

know any, dude, so many people in my
life have insane financial situations.

Mm-hmm.

And I say insane in that they're
just like all over the place.

They come from place, all sorts of angles.

They're high and low, they're up,
and you know, they're, they just,

it's, it, it's a crazy way to exist.

And it was like that for me for a long
time, you know, especially in my twenties

and early thirties where having, you
know, some sort of a plan or someone

that we can go to that actually...

because any financial person I met
with at any point in my life prior

to specialists in the industry, had
no idea what I was talking about with

anything I was talking about ever.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Like if I ever met with a
CPA to help organize, you

know, 900 w twos from a year.

From Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They'd just be like, what?

And then trying to organize write
offs and explain to 'em what is

a write off and then be like,
no, I don't think that works.

Or, you know, vice versa.

Like even just starting with tax stuff.

Mm-hmm.

I think we were all rallying on
another mutual friend of ours, Mickey.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: on, Mickey was like the voice
of reason for like disparate like, you

know, gig workers in the Raleigh community
because he was like the super organized,

financially responsible gig worker mm-hmm.

Timothy Iseler: mm-hmm.

Brad Cook: That had been buying
houses already and like had, you

know, investments and would kind
of like go get a beer with you and

like give you some, like on the
side advice about what you could do.

But that, I feel like it always meant 10
times more coming from him than any other

certified person I talked to because he
understood what we were talking about.

Yeah.

And I feel like you're so, I'm so
grateful that you've changed this,

Tim, because you are like, Mickey
really organized and responsible with

this and I've always been, you know.

Timothy Iseler: yeah, yeah.

Well, what I really saw as I
figured stuff out for myself.

'cause I, when I grew up, I started
working really young and I, I

was really good at saving money
you know, because I, whatever.

When you're, when you're what,
you know, 10, 11, 12, and a

comic book costs a buck 25.

Yeah.

It's like, you know, you can
save money pretty, but, I didn't

know anything about investing.

I didn't know anything about debt.

I'd never had a credit
card until mid twenties.

Like I, I didn't know any of this stuff
and figuring it out on my own, managing

like an up and down income or learning
how to invest as, as a roadie, like

I, I learned how to do that because
a, a buddy of mine, Matt Littlejohn,

who's a front house engineer, he like
one conversation on a tour bus headed

to Seattle and I was like, oh, I guess
I better like figure this stuff out.

And the thing that surprised me
always along the way was like,

it wasn't as complicated or
difficult as I thought it would be.

You know, I kind of had this
perspective, especially around

investing, I had this perspective that
you had to really, really know what

you were doing and it was extremely
like high pressure and complicated.

Then as I learned how to do
it, I was like, oh, this it's

actually like not complicated.

And when I wanted to have a career
change, I was like, I want to help

other people see this because so
many, I knew so many people as roadies

who were earning six figures a year,
but had nothing to show for it.

You know, maybe they had a lot of cash
at a bank account, but like, there

was no, there was no outlet for them.

There was nobody talking about
like, Hey, you know, you could

actually do these other things.

Actually, and except for having a weird
job, they have all the qualifications

of getting professional finance advice.

But like you said, when you have
whatever, you get like a dozen

W twos because you worked in all
these different states and your CPA

doesn't know what to do about that.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's, it's, so if somebody has
an unpredictable income and they don't

make a ton of money, most financial
advisors don't what to do with that.

Yeah, right.

Because if you're making whatever,
if you're a dentist and you're making

half a million dollars a year, but
you don't know from month to month

what you make, like, okay, that's
easy 'cause there's so much money.

But if you're making a hundred k a
year or 70 k a year, and your income

goes up and down and know, like
nobody knows how to approach that.

So that's what I wanted to do.

I wanted to help the people because
I had had those experience too,

of talking to professionals and
being like, I got my shit together.

Like I'm just, I'm not looking for
you to like hold my hand, just kind of

like, tell me what I should be doing.

Brad Cook: Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's really, man,
it's important stuff, Tim.

Timothy Iseler: Thanks buddy.

Yeah.

Brad Cook: Grateful for you.

Timothy Iseler: Thank you buddy.

So you mentioned what a successful
record looks like for you.

Let's, let me just ask, like,
have there been times when you're,

you're in it and you're like, this
is, we're not gonna get there.

Like, I think it's better
for us to throw in the towel.

Brad Cook: Yes.

That's happened a couple times.

Timothy Iseler: What it that leads
you to that where you're like, I'm

not, i'm not gonna get through, or
we're not gonna do the thing that we

both think we're gonna do because,

Brad Cook: I think ultimately the trust
gets off on the wrong foot and you

can just tell it's not the right fit.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean?

Like the whole thing it's,
it sort of resides on that.

Like whether or not you're
gonna just trust each other

at a fun, fundamental level.

And yeah, there's just a couple times
where, you know, you can just tell

you somebody's not it's feeling you,

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: You what I mean?

And I'm generally the one that
pulls the rip cord, and, you know,

to varying degrees of discomfort.

Mm-hmm.

But I think that that's just
part of it, you know what I mean?

It's not always a good fit.

It's you doing something that in
theory, carries a lot of weight with it.

I mean, you're making something
for the permanent record mm-hmm.

That's very public.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And I think that's a noble and
brave act on any level, you know,

to put yourself out there like that.

But with that said, yeah, I mean
the, the varying degrees of the way

people internalize those pressures or
that experience, or their experience,

it just doesn't always make for
the best working relationship.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: One, you know,
one, one reason or another.

It's not fun.

It's not a great feeling.

But I'm, I'm never, I have no regrets
either, because I feel like they're

always, that was an important thing.

And in the future, it's like all
those situations, I would assume

it for everybody, but it, like, you
know, they just shape the way you

make other decisions in the future.

And it helps you understand even
what you're trying to do too,

Timothy Iseler: Mm

Brad Cook: or where you
even feel calibrating.

Like, like the, the strangest part of
this job is when you are asked to work

on a record with someone that you really
have like past history looking up to,

or were informative to your journey
somehow, or you're just a fan in general

and understanding that you you don't
know what to bring to that equation.

So you have to say no before you learn in
the studio that this isn't working out.

Nowadays I just, I, a lot of the times
when I get certain offers like that

where I just feel like there's a, a
built-in, you know, someone coming

from a type of experience, a history,
you know, it's just, it's hard.

It's just, I, I treat those situations
a little different than I do say a

young artist who's not done anything,
even though the legacy artist

might have more of an audience.

It just sort of depends where
they're at on the journey and

where their curiosities are.

And you know, there's some old heads
I've worked with that have been

incredible and there's some where it
just hasn't been the best experience.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

What's your vetting process
like in that situation?

Do you, do you have a
conversation with 'em?

Like, like, like let's say it's
a legacy artist, do like having a

little back and forth ahead of time.

Vibe check kind of a thing?

Brad Cook: kind of.

Honestly, it's the same with everybody.

Oh,

Timothy Iseler: okay.

Brad Cook: okay.

If, if it feels like it would even
make sense, then we usually have

like a Zoom call or a phone call.

And then if that goes well, then
we try to put like a date or two on

the calendar just as a way to sort
of have like a low stakes hang.

Timothy Iseler: Are you, are you, are you
making music then, or you just a hang?

Brad Cook: Loosely.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Brad Cook: Mm-hmm.

Sometimes we make a lot
of music in that time.

Sometimes we make record five songs
in that time and then we're halfway

into a record and then it's clear
that we have a good chemistry.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: That happens.

Other times you're just sort of vibing
and maybe you realize like, I'm not the

person you need, maybe check this out.

But we're gonna be homies for
a long time and maybe we'll

work together down the road.

You know, there's a lot of different
versions of it, but I try to

meet people for everybody's sake.

So we try to avoid any long, you
know, making a record can be long.

Yeah.

You just wanna make sure you're
all on the same page about it.

And I think just having a couple days
with no pressure is a nice way to sort

of feel like that's going to work or not.

Timothy Iseler: At that point where it's
like, okay, hey, this might work, let's

get a couple days, just to feel it out,
is there money involved in that or is it

just like, no, we'll just see how it goes.

No.

If it goes well, then we'll talk money or,

Brad Cook: yeah, like I would
see it as, because I generally.

90% of the time I work
from home, I work here.

Mm-hmm.

And I just ask people like if they're,
if they're serious, that they would want

me to help them like, they're probably
gonna get the best version of me if I'm

working here and I can be home at night
with my wife and dog and we can have

dinner and I can go through my routine.

You know, we're just set up to move
a certain way here that they're just

gonna have the most accurate version
of that if they're generally curious.

So if they're willing to come
out here, I'm not gonna charge

anyone for those or anything.

Like, I just want it to be like, Hey,
let's just consider this a meetup.

We'll spend a couple days, we'll vibe,
you know, and if we get off to the races,

then maybe the, you know, our management
people maybe have a conversation about

what it looks like to finish a record.

Or sometimes they'll be like,
yeah, we want to finish a record.

Sometimes people are like, no, it's
not the right fit, but thank you.

That was awesome.

You know, like it comes in all forms.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and, but it's, I that's, that's
probably like the most universal thing.

Sometimes, like, you know, I
did this record that's gonna

come out this year with Mavis.

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy was talking about,
obviously I feel the same way he

does about her anytime any place.

National Treasure, our most important
singer, our most important musician.

I didn't meet Mavis before I
started working with Mavis.

I, I had a pretty good idea of what I
was getting into, you know what I mean?

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: But like, that was not a
situation where I was like, Mavis, do you

wanna come into my studio for two days?

Right, right, right.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Come meet my

Brad Cook: Yeah.

I was like, where you show me where to
go, dude, I'll record you and anywhere

you are trying, I'll go anywhere
and do anything for you, you know?

Timothy Iseler: So you mentioned if
it's going well, your your management

will talk to their management.

So they're dealing with the, the money,
the contract, whatever it's gonna be.

Between you and them, how do you
decide what you wanna get paid or

what you should be asking, what they
should be asking for on behalf of you?

Brad Cook: I think they have, there's
somewhat of a boilerplate offer.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Brad Cook: Generally just sort of
based on where I normally like to be.

But I also am, like I was saying
earlier, I'm like, sliding scale is

imperative to the operation for me.

And so when I say like, a record makes
no money, like I, we don't generate,

you know, by the time I've paid for
the session musicians or the expenses,

the record, like there's not, it's
like a net loss, you know what I mean?

Like,

that's okay.

I, I'm okay to, like, if I'm gonna
look at it as like spending my money

and that I, I believe in that too.

Mm-hmm.

And however I can help,
that's part of it, you know?

And so they negotiate that stuff.

They negotiate and deal, you know,
we have legal people and you know,

there's like, I have a pretty, you
know, I have business managers in

New York, so there's probably all in
4, 5, 6 people that are o overseeing

the administrative side of what I do.

Timothy Iseler: me.

Yeah.

Brad Cook: Yeah.

Which.

Sounds crazy to me to say, but also
like keeps me focused on the thing.

And that's probably part of it too, you
know, like I don't, from a time in my

life where I was a bad manager for this.

Yeah, I understand.

it just keeps, like, I've never
thought about, I've never thought

about money, so it's in tune to that.

Mm-hmm.

For better or worse, but it's also
nice to not think about money mm-hmm.

At this point and have people that are
making an informed decisions and helping

me make informed decisions about that.

Mm-hmm.

Timothy Iseler: Are they sort of
coming to you and saying like, Hey, I

think, like, I think this is what you
should be charging for records now?

Brad Cook: I mean, management, yes.

Management does.

They'll, they'll like, they'll like
decide on the offers and they'll

negotiate with other managers.

About what, what I'm getting paid
or what the budget is, or you know,

some records are all in some records.

I have a fee and then
there's a recording budget.

Do you know what I mean?

Well, and, and if it's all in, yeah.

Ideally that, or that's not an
ideal situation only because, you

know, I'm commissioned 20% from the
administrative side of what I do.

Right.

And so that goes off the top.

So even if I'm paying like all the other
people, you know, I'm paying the taxes

and the commissions on the whole fee.

Right.

Which is a lot then.

Right.

And then, and then that's half the
budget gone just on like logistics.

Timothy Iseler: right.

Brad Cook: Or not even
logistics, just on admin

Timothy Iseler: Right.

Brad Cook: and versus like, if we break
it down and have the label be responsible

for like, you know, this part of the
budget session musicians or mm-hmm.

Engineer or or studio.

Know what I mean?

Stuff we've learned over time.

Mm-hmm.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Brad Cook: But some people just
don't have that infrastructure.

So it is just an all in budget.

And that is, it's cool, you know,?

Timothy Iseler: A few years ago you talked
about, an idea, and I think you did this,

of basically like making records on spec.

Yeah.

And then seeing what happened.

Like if there's a backend, we
share the backend, but there's not,

then basically like do it at cost.

Are you still using
something like that or not?

Brad Cook: not?

Sometimes.

If someone has absolutely zero
resource, and I really believe in it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, and not like, it's not like
gouging a backend, it's just like you

can just pay me with a backend, you know?

However feels fair.

You know?

There's times where I'm still willing
to take that risk because I believe

in the person and I believe in
what they're trying to say, and I

believe in what they're trying to do.

And I still think the best
art in the world gets made

outta struggle, unfortunately.

I, I rarely think it's made from
a place of obscene privilege.

And so I, you know, I like
being close to that art.

I like being, it moves me.

I like being moved in the studio.

Like, that's like such a simple
metric of like, what's happening right

now in front of me in the moment.

Like, it's making me tear up.

Yeah.

It's making me cry.

So I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna
like second guess that I'm just

gonna like, try and work with that.

That's objectively what's moving me.

You know what I mean?

Like, I don't have a
better metric than that.

Yeah.

You know?

Know?

Timothy Iseler: Are you just kind of
like leaving it to chance of like, i'm

gonna get some records that pay, I'm
gonna get some records that don't Yeah.

And it'll just work out.

Brad Cook: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and honestly like part,
there's like some stability in the

residuals mm-hmm from this job.

You know, I've been working on records for
long enough now that stuff has recouped.

Mm-hmm.

And you know, like, you you know,
there's royalties that, come

you know, come in from a lot of
different places throughout the year.

And those are pretty stable.

They're pretty consistent.

If anything, they just grow because
every year there's six or seven

more records that go into that.

So that alone, just, again, not
being like, motivated by it, that,

that to me allows me to like, spend
the money I have on my, on time.

Just being home chilling.

I feel like there's always,
it just comes out in the wash.

I don't, I don't, I
haven't thought about it.

It's just some records though the
budget comes through and it just

is maybe what they asked for.

And then other times, I know it's
just they've, they'll like confirm

with me that they have to do a
reduction in fee or something.

But if by the time we've decided we're
doing it, I'm always like, I don't care.

Great.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: So we, we're here in your
house right now, and that you'd like to

do, set here, your, you know, people are
gonna get the best version of you here.

What do you do you think if you
were to name I, well, I think

maybe it's, it's obvious what
the upside of you working for.

Home is.

What do you think are some of the
challenges of working from home?

Brad Cook: The challenges
of working from home.

Boy.

It, where I'm currently, this, this place
we're in, I have very few complaints.

I don't, it's funny, Tim, fine.

Like the, I don't have
like the, it's strange.

I don't have a lot of challenges
with it because it's also

very easy for me to turn off.

When I'm not working.

I use these rooms differently, but more
than anything, like this, this garage

room, when is like my hangout room when
I'm not working, you know, I have games

on the TV and the video synth going,
and I'm listening to music as a fan

out here on, you know, it's not as a
pressurized of a listening environment.

And there's fresh air coming in and, or
I'll just chill out in the house and like,

hang out with Stella and watch movies
and cook and do you know what I mean?

Like I, I, it's really that part
of it of like the mental commute

is, is really easy for me.

At the same time every single day, by
9 55, I've turned every single thing on

in this house that works for recording
and everything's wired all the time.

And so even if we don't have anybody
here, everything is fired up because

if I'm sitting there and we're mixing
something and I all of a sudden hear one

stupid idea for one bar, I wanna be able
to walk over there in one second do it.

Yeah.

. Simultaneously.

I would love, I love nothing more
than for singers of bands to come

into here and never hear a drum.

Hmm.

Like a sound check with the drums.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: We get the vocal sound
and we start recording the record.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Like.

Timothy Iseler: That because
it's already all set up.

Brad Cook: Yes.

And it is dialed for
what we need it to be.

And, and and we're in the same space
all the time, it's easy to manipulate

it to what you, what you need it to be.

You know what I mean?

We've done enough treatments or, or
changed stuff around enough where

it's like, nah, this is actually
the best spot for this trust.

Trust.

And you know, you have to do that without
getting too, um, I still have to find

ways to not get the same, where it's
too patternistic for every session.

I just know that like, the drums
will sound the best right there.

Mm-hmm.

So let's just start there.

We're not gonna like hit those things
for an hour and, and get a line test.

Right.

We're just gonna start playing the song.

Timothy Iseler: Right.

Brad Cook: You know what I mean?

Like, I think that kind of like
back what you were saying about like

sound check too, of like, it just.

It's so much more inspiring
to walk onto a stage.

I felt that when I was touring with
you, we'd walk on the stage for

soundcheck and just play our songs.

Mm-hmm.

And you would just mix us into the room.

Mm-hmm.

And we didn't sit there on stage and
watch our drummer hit his rack Tom, for

two minutes straight wanting to die.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: Do you know what I mean?

Like Yeah.

It's just like the number one, like,
it's like having to go to this weird

event every day where you just hear
rim shots is a strange job description.

Mm-hmm.

And you really change
the game for us in that.

But I think about that a lot in studios
too, of like just walking and play.

It's the best way to get it to
sound the way you want it to.

Timothy Iseler: What's a
financial decision that you feel

like was a total win for you?

Brad Cook: Buying our
house in Durham in 2013.

That was the most responsible
and smartest by accident choice

I've ever been a part of.

Mm-hmm.

Um, Phil and I had received

small inheritance from our grandfather
who passed away in january of that year.

And coupled with like Megafaun,
we had stopped, but we were still

receiving like a, our royalties for
some bigger things we had licensed.

And so Stella and I bought this house
for $177,000 in 2013 in Durham, which

to us was like, holy shit, here we go.

You know what I mean?

Crazy at that time.

And you know, we rent that house
now, but that house is, our

current tax statement is 444.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean?

Like that was a really great investment.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: Uh, you know, we got 2.3%

financing or whatever it is.

And every, every, we just got lucky.

But we did it when we had it.

We like struck at the exact
moment we were able to.

And I'm really grateful we did that.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

So now we we know that Durham became
a very hot real estate market.

What were some things while, you know,
you just bought it, you're living in it.

What are some things that, aside from
knowing that the market was gonna take

off so much that made it worth, for you?

Brad Cook: well, that
property had an outbuilding.

So that was where I first
started like recording and

rehearsing with bands out there.

And yeah.

That having that space, especially at
the top of COVID to just have this full

studio out there was like life changing.

I could still go to work every day and
I never, I mean, that's another thing

that's kind of part of whatever the
experience is, I never stopped working.

I, I, you know, I didn't have
a traditional COVID experience.

My, if anything, almost immediately.

I got busier starting in June of 2020.

Mm-hmm.

I was mixing a record
when the pandemic started.

I did a whole tracking session up until
March 1st, and then I was just mixing

until I started recording it in June,
and then I've just been pretty much on

the same schedule since June of 2020.

Timothy Iseler: Did you find that
because people couldn't tour, like

more people were looking to record?

Brad Cook: Yeah, I think so.

And it took a little bit figuring
out, like the whole masking, no

masking, testing, all that stuff, like
masks were not okay in the studio.

Unfortunately, it was
not that environment.

Is like, really needs a type
of emotional nuance to it.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Brad Cook: Like the mask thing
made it a really cold experience.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: In a way that
I was not okay with.

So I did a lot of like
testing sessions and stuff.

But yeah, it was wild man.

Timothy Iseler: What's

Brad Cook: something you love
to do that's cheap or free?

Watch basketball.

Yeah.

I mean, or you know, cheap.

Like I, you know, depending on
how extravagant you wanna get.

I still love cooking.

Experientially, that's
pretty cheap for me.

You know, I don't buy
like nuts, groceries.

I just like functional cooking.

I still have a lot of fun with that.

I love watching.

Yeah.

I love watching basketball.

I'm pretty much good to go listening
to music, watching basketball,

smoking weed out in the garage.

That is like a perfect hang for me.

Yeah.

I could afford to do that when I was 16.

I could afford to do that when I was 27.

I could afford to do that now.

Like it's, that has never left.

I, that's sort of been
there since I was young.

Those, those three things in particular
in tandem and, and I'm good to go.

Timothy Iseler: Killer.

Brad, you, you sent me over
a question: there are so many

conversations surrounding music and ai.

What are your thoughts on the future
of financial planning and investing

in regard to aI and blockchain?

I'm gonna take that in two chunks.

Brad Cook: Yep.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

I'm gonna start with ai.

I think it's awesome.

And I think that lots of people are gonna
lose their jobs because of ai, right?

Yeah, totally.

I can't afford to have what you would call
in the industry, an associate planner,

which is basically just an assistant.

And so I know some people who work at
more traditional financial planning firms

and they have an associate, and you know,
the associate does all the work, right?

Yeah.

The associate is the one going
through software, building the

plan, and then the lead advisor is
the one that meets with the client

that says, here's the plan we made.

Right?

Yep.

Yeah.

I can't afford that.

And for me, what I would love is in
my financial planning software, if I

was like, take all of this information
and optimize it for they pay for their

kids' college, show me what that does.

Now do the same thing, optimize for
retirement, show me what that does.

Like, run a thousand situations for me
and figure out like the best way to pay

off this debt, rather than me nudging
the little slider and being like, what

if it's a hundred dollars more a month?

What does that do?

What does that do?

Yeah.

What's 200 more a month I want?

I would love it if an
AI would just do for me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that's coming really soon,
and I think we're at a point in my

industry for sure, I think in a lot
of industries where the professional

is no longer the gatekeeper.

This already happened with
investing where it used to be,

it used to be that literally you
could not invest your own money.

You would have to call somebody who was
licensed to invest on your behalf right.

You'd have to actually call up a broker.

Yeah, and they would invest your money.

so , the financial professional was
the gatekeeper and then it became

easy for individuals to buy and
sell their own investments, things

like Vanguard or fidelity or Schwab.

And so we get to like financial
planning, and so far that gatekeeper

is still kind of there, where like, I'm
the one with the expensive software.

You give me the information, put
it in the expensive software.

Poof.

You've got a financial plan.

And I think that is going away.

And I think there are a lot of
people who are not ready for that.

And like, you know, going back to
our conversation earlier about me not

necessarily adopting the orthodoxy,
I think the least important part of

a financial plan is the document.

I think the most important part
is the conversation, right?

Like I can, I could gather some
information from you, run a bunch of

scenarios and spit out like a 50 page
plan and it would look impressive.

And I put it, you know, I would put
it in a nice binder with my company

logo on it and you'd be like, wow,
Tim worked really hard on that.

Right.

And I think that as the value
proposition, AI is gonna kill that.

Yeah.

Because you don't need the person
to do that for you anymore.

I think what won't be killed is
the part that I think the value.

I think where the value is is
talking to someone and feeling

okay about, your decisions.

And if you just take for example
like investing, at this point

in time nobody needs another
person to invest their money.

It's available to everyone starting
at, you know, whatever, open up a

Robin Hood account and put $10 in.

You can do it yourself.

Anyone can fucking do it themselves.

The reason you would work with a
person is because you're uncertain

or you're scared, or you're like,
I just don't want to fucking think

about this shit all day time.

Right?

So the value of the person
is not the technology.

It's can you help me do this
thing that's uncomfortable for me?

And I think that's where
the value will persist.

And so I do think for a lot of people, AI
is gonna be a big hit to their business.

I'm not really worried about it.

Mm-hmm.

Because I think that the
overwhelming amount of value is

not in how cool is the technology.

Like, yeah.

Nobody cares.

Yeah.

I am worried about AI in the sense
of like, false information You

know, the AI just hallucinating
and giving bad suggestions.

But in terms of of here's the , whatever,
a hundred thousand calculations I need you

to do, do it for me, that I think is rad.

Brad Cook: Yeah, that's cool.

I, I feel the same.

There's like parts of it in music, but
I feel the same way about money stuff

too, is I do still feel like the personal
experience we're still hardwired to like

take our information from each other.

At least a type of information, a type
of emotional information, a type of

emotional weight, a type of sensitive
information, I feel like is still

best, truly best delivered one-on-one.

Now, I do think the rise of like
ChatGPT therapy and all this

stuff is gonna change what future
generations believe about that.

Yeah.

But I also don't think future generations
have any money, unfortunately.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: yeah,

Brad Cook: Do you know what I mean?

Like it's, it's like they don't have
a choice but to lean into this tech.

For a type of, of resource.

Yeah.

And, but do, yeah.

It's, I'm so, yeah.

I'm so interested with it because I do
think, like, you're right, I think admin

at large is, is going away, you know,
and I do think there's like, you know,

shorthand ai, you know, we see it in mixed
plugins now, but that's not a bad thing.

You know, I see everyone use this new
plugin God particle and say what you want.

I know it's not ai, but it is.

Mm-hmm.

It, it's, it's, it's working off a similar
idea, but I, i, I love what it can do.

Mm-hmm.

You know, is it always the answer?

No.

But is it another tool?

Yeah.

Hell yeah.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And like, I think you have the right
approach with it too, Tim, because I

feel like that, you know, trusting in the
value being you being right is a really,

that is the, the thing that's powerful.

You know, totally.

Timothy Iseler: I tell people all
the time, there's, there's literally

like, I had to study a lot to get
licensed and I had to study to get

my CFP designation, so I had to learn
a lot, but there's literally nothing

I know that you can't find google.

Like everything I know about money
is available to everyone for free.

So it's not the information, it's
not like how do I compare one

mutual fund to another mutual fund?

Like all of that is already out
there for free for anyone who, it.

The thing that is holding people
back is not access to information

and it's not really access to tools.

It's like, this shit makes me
uncomfortable and maybe like an AI

therapist maybe that will fill that role.

I don't know.

But almost always, people are willing to
take a first person recommendation over

like the top 20 hits on Yelp or whatever.

Like if somebody tells you this is
a good chiropractor, you're like,

great, that's a good chiropractor.

You're not going to go research 20 more.

You're gonna be like that the one

. And then on the blockchain side, that's
really interesting and that's unfolding.

I generally don't like talking a lot
about politics publicly 'cause I got

really burned out in totally 1.0.

Like I just like everything
about it stopped being rewarding.

Yeah.

To me and enriching.

Agreed.

So I don't necessarily want to talk
about politics, but I think that

the current blockchain environment
is extremely irresponsible.

And I'm not talking about like
Bitcoin or Ethereum or whatever

I'm talking about like you know,
the Trump coin and all that shit.

Yes.

I think that's really tainting
the industry in a way.

And I don't know what'll happen.

So let's just put that aside
for minute that like I think

that is a steaming pile of shit.

But then there's this other blockchain
stuff, Bitcoin and Ethereum and whatever.

So those are coins that
are built on a blockchain.

But then there's the idea of a
blockchain, which is just an open ledger.

Yep.

That everybody participating
in that system, kind of is

accounting for everyone else.

And I think lots of times when
people talk about it, they're talking

about is Bitcoin a good investment?

Right.

And there's that side of it,
but then there's also like.

Is this technology gonna change things?

And I think absolutely that
technology's gonna change things.

, Like say for example, take the
money part out of it for a second

or the coin part out of it, right?

Like a not branded coin, and just say,
I want to be able to make a contract.

I'm whatever, i, I went to uruguay
and I'm enamored and I want to

get a, I want to buy a condo in
at a a month of the day, right?

Yeah.

But they've got a totally
different currency.

They've got a different legal system.

How can I arrange a
contract to buy this condo?

And the blockchain allows for people
to make contracts that kind of bypass

these additional layers of regulation.

And there's risks with that too,
because that extra regulation is

there often to protect to consumer.

But I think once that technology
becomes mainstream, I think it's

gonna be everywhere because it's so
much more efficient for somebody to

do it that way than the other way.

So like take for example, somebody
involved in commercial real estate,

like maybe it's not me buying my
vacation condo, but maybe it's

somebody involved commercial real
estate and a I don't know, real estate

platform, and they're like, guess what?

We released our own what they what
they call trustless contract platform.

Mm-hmm.

So anybody can buy com
commercial real estate anywhere.

Like mm-hmm.

That's kind of a boring mm-hmm
application, but it's way more

efficient than whatever there is now.

Brad Cook: Yeah.

Well, and also, I mean, it's funny
because I feel like this conversation's

been in music for a while and I'm sort
of surprised it hasn't taken off yet.

But I understand why I've, because all
the financial gatekeepers are major

labels and major publishing houses,
and they're gonna be the ones that will

be the, I mean, the publishing houses
will be the first to go in blockchain.

Mm-hmm.

The minute it, it becomes like
a real vehicle for people.

Because a similar thing in terms of
like publishing contracts, there's so

much admin between the minute the song
is written by whoever wrote it, and

the time there's a royalty paid out
from label shares, publishing shares,

management, everybody you could legal,
anything you could imagine, there's

just gonna be reductions along the way.

And I think when most of those people
are there to just sort of facilitate

the collection of royalty, like
ultimately like A BMI or an ascap,

like blockchain would revolutionize
that in just one second because

of the immediacy of all of it.

You know, registering your song
immediately to the blockchain and

having the payout distribution is part
of the upload and so on and so forth.

That's a lot of people that no longer
are necessary to the operation.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And you know, from personally,
like in that world, like I think

there's some publishing a and r that
is important, but like that does

feel like a job That is a wasteful
resource to me of royalty collection.

I feel like if that can be automated in
any capacity and streamlined and more

efficient and more effective, I don't know
anybody that likes chasing down royalties.

You know, and, and depending on what
kind of an infrastructure you have,

that could be a big part of your job.

Mm-hmm.

You mm-hmm.

You know what I mean?

Or your day to day or.

Whatever's going on.

So in that capacity, I'm, I'm, I see
it there, but I also feel like we were

having these conversations eight years
ago and it still hasn't kicked in.

And I'll be curious when that does happen.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

But

Timothy Iseler: yeah, I'm kind of
curious you could make the publishing

agreement on the blockchain, that
would be easy to do then to find

a way to collect the royalties.

I feel like once someone figures that out,
especially it seems like you ought to be

able to automate all of, most of that.

Yeah.

I, I would be really excited to see
who does that without waiting for

permission from the major labels.

Because they're, or whatever the,
the, the you know, capital I industry.

Brad Cook: I think there
are people doing it.

I, it is just not.

It's not the norm.

It's, it's not like I guess I'm speaking
in relation to thinking it would've

taken, it would be of happened by now.

Mm-hmm.

I'm sort of surprised it hasn't,
but I'm anticipating that it will.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

At one point.

But

Timothy Iseler: this has got me
thinking, so, like, my involvement

with making records is now,
10 to 15 years ago let's say.

Brad Cook: dormant.

Timothy Iseler: Dormant.

Right.

So I don't really, I haven't had my
finger on that pulse for a long time.

And the people that I knew who were
peers, once file sharing became a

thing and you know, spotify, Apple
music, like the, narrative was, we're

all fucked, you're never gonna make
any money as an independent artist.

But I don't want to name check this
person that you and I both worked with,

but she has like every year for the
last whatever, four years, she's like,

everything's better than it used to be.

Like every year is going up and up and up.

Yep.

And she's not selling as many
records as somebody would've sold

20 years ago in her position.

But every year is better and better.

So I guess my question is for you, like
working with younger artists, working

with people who are ascendent, what is
it that people are doing that works for

them in this era where like, you can't,
you can't be an indie band that sells

50,000 records and afford to buy a house
like you could 25 years ago or something.

Brad Cook: Yeah.

Well, ironically, you could, I think
if you were selling 50,000 records

today, I think that would still
put you in a pretty good place.

But like, but yeah, but
I know what you mean.

Like, it, it's funny, Tim, 'cause I've
thought about this a lot over my life

and, and I think it's part of why I'm
not raged about it is that like, I never

made a single cent of money in music,
like in regards to a royalty, mm-hmm.

Until the streaming era.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: I never even
kind of would've had a shot.

I went to.

I like, to me, it's, it's hard because
I think the streaming royalty situation

and the ethics behind it are god
awful and horrible and a million, you

know, fuck Daniel Eck on every level.

However, what he built is super, the vibe.

And I just think if they were to
organize the way and the value of what

he has and what he's selling, like
if we're willing to pay 70 fucking

dollars for cable television, I do
feel like $50 a month for all the

music in the world is not unheard of.

Mm-hmm.

And I feel like higher royalty
rates for the people that

create that is not unheard of.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I don't think the
mechanism needs to change, you know?

But, but with that said, like to me,
you know, I grew up with the generation

of people bitching about how little
money I, I, all the people above me

have, have made significantly less money
relative to like what they used to do.

And I don't know what that
says about work ethic.

I don't know what that
says about a lot of things.

'cause I still don't feel
like I work that hard.

Actually.

I work, people around me would say
I work a lot and I, you know, I love

it, so it's not that hard of work.

But I also don't actually
work that I probably work 150,

180 days a year, maybe more.

I don't know.

But it's not a cr it's not actually as
much as I would if I had a real job.

Timothy Iseler: Right.

Brad Cook: And I don't make an obscene
amount of money, but I make more than

enough money to live a very normal life.

Mm-hmm.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Brad Cook: And a comfortable life.

And I don't have a lot
of financial stress.

Financial is an extreme privilege.

But that's all been
through independent music.

Mm-hmm.

And so, I don't know, it's hard.

'cause I don't know what
parts of it to speak to.

Uh, Touring has never made sense to me.

So I don't, you know what I mean?

Like that's always felt
like a suicide mission.

And like that's always felt psychotic.

That's always felt a million things to me.

Especially when you're at a certain level.

I don't think the general public
realizes how much internal drive and

like conviction it takes to complete a
US American tour in a van at any level.

Yeah.

That's real as hell, man.

I, I, we laugh.

It's funny 'cause you and I
have done it so many times.

But it's like, bro, in hindsight, those
are the, that was the worst version

of myself on almost every level.

Dude, you sleep three hours a night,
you drinking weird, you're eating weird.

You're, you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

Like, there's so much adrenaline up and
down and, and, and you're, there's a,

and you're reflecting all this certain
energy back to you the whole time.

There's like so many things
about it that are disorienting.

And I think there are people that are
built for that and, and our friend

that we're talking about is one of 'em.

Mm-hmm.

But I think about her a lot.

You know, she's like, the number one
example of anyone I would use is that

like the technique was there all the time.

Did a lot of self work from getting sober
and, and therapy and just addressing some

personal discomforts and then cleared the
way to make like really compelling art.

Mm-hmm.

And she works really hard in it and she's
got a really good work life balance.

And she's not on the internet, but the
main thing that changed to me is just

belief in herself.

Mm-hmm.

But now I see that and yeah.

You know, like she has a very successful
music career and a lot of people I know

do, and so it's hard because it's like

probably smart about a lot of things.

I think she would tell you she
wasn't about a lot of things

early on, but that's okay too.

I think that's part of it, is that
there's no way to learn how to do this.

Mm-hmm.

All, even if you get advice
from 50 people, it's 50

different versions of advice.

Mm-hmm.

And you might hear one common thing,
like, like always fill your gas tank up.

Don't fill it halfway.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: Whatever.

You know, like, but it's not helpful.

It's generally so specific to
what each person went through

to get to where they got.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: Yeah.

You know?

And so I just think it's important for
people at large to just like with that

kind of stuff, like I really ride hard
for just doing the work and deciding

how serious you want to take it.

And then like when you look
around at the landscape, like

this is what it looks like.

I mean, professional athletes
make us all look funny.

Mm-hmm.

Because every part of
their life is very public.

From how much money they make to,
to scandal, to, you know, if they

kissed somebody they shouldn't have
or did something they shouldn't have.

And, and and they're young, they're
younger than most musicians we know,

and they don't have any other rule.

You know, they might have some
HR infrastructure, but it's like,

there's so much burnout in the early
days of these things because it's

a lot of pressure for young people.

Yeah.

And, and music to me feels a very
different, it feels like a patient version

of that, you know, if you want it to be.

But yeah, I just, I don't know, dude,
it's, I don't know how anyone does

it at all anymore because I, the part
that really, when I think about touring

inflation makes me realize like,
boy, we toured in a different time.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: Yeah.

You know, I, I think a shitty hotel
room is probably 200 bucks now.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Timothy Iseler: Oh

Brad Cook: And, and back then,
200 bucks would've been like.

Extraordinary amount of money to spend
in a hotel room for almost anyone

I knew that was even killing it.

Uhhuh, it would've been hard to spend
that much unless you were staying at

like a four star hotel every night.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

Brad Cook: Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Like it, holiday Inn was $79 a
night for most of my touring life.

Yeah.

And that, I don't know.

I don't know what that costs now, but I
bet it's a lot more than that, you know?

And Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

And as far as I know, bands still get
paid 500 bucks a night or 250 bucks to

support, or none of that's changed, right?

I mean, to the best of our, I
mean, I should ask more, but

Timothy Iseler: I mean, I know if
you're going to like Cat's Cradle

or whatever, like there's that
sort of economy where I think it's

still sort of like the old economy.

But if you want to go
see any at like DPAC or.

You're paying, you know,

Brad Cook: A hundred some dollars

Timothy Iseler: on the low
side, you know, a hundred, yeah.

A a hundred dollars to be in the
balcony at the back, you know?

So I think there are a lot of concerts
where people are paying whatever, 300

bucks a pop to be there, and I don't,
I don't really have a sense of that

world, but I think there's a lot of
shows that huge amount of income you

know, just because of their audience.

Brad Cook: I heard you say something
on another podcast about the stories

we tell ourselves in regards to that.

Oh yeah.

And I find that to be one of the
hardest things about all this is

like, we all just take it when they
tell us tickets are not $300, not 75

for general admission at a big show.

Right.

Timothy Iseler: Right.

Brad Cook: Someone just decided, you know,
like, of course it's capitalism, that's a

million things in play, but like the way
that we do just decide these fees need to

be what they are is kind of batshit to me.

Mm-hmm.

Timothy Iseler: Mm-hmm.

Brad Cook: And I know that that
could be, I'm sure there's a lot, I'm

not taking into account about that,
but I do feel like it did change

in a way that was extreme in the
last 6, 5, 6 years in particular.

That again, it's not, if that all
that money's coming and I feel like

there's not that much more going
out unless it's a very big show.

You know what I mean?

And there's so many under the
table deals and those service fees

that you pay in these big shows.

Mm.

Timothy Iseler: Yeah.

You

Brad Cook: You know what I mean?

There's so many people that get
paid under the table as part of

the service fee on those big shows.

That's why they're not totally accounted
for and where that money's even going.

You know what I mean?

There should be an i, a fully transparent
you know, forensic printout of where

every cent of your service fees go.

So people know that it's mafia.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, anyway, that's a whole nother story.

That's a whole nother can of worms, Tim.

Yeah, man.

Cool.

Timothy Iseler: Cool.

Well thank

Brad Cook: you Brad.

Appreciate

Aww, thank you brother.

Timothy Iseler: Thanks for having me over.

Brad Cook: Anytime man.

Thank you for having me.

I appreciate what you're
doing with this, Tim.

I think it's really awesome.

Timothy Iseler: Thank you buddy.

How was that?

Fun conversation, right?

I had a great time and thought we
covered some really interesting topics.

I personally appreciated when Brad asked
about whether I help people plan for

shorter term goals and decisions, because
that's something I've been thinking

about a ton over the last year and one
of the best parts about working for

myself is that I can do things my own
way, even if that means deviating from

how the industry at large does things.

So thanks for a great conversation, Brad.

That was awesome.

All right.

That's it for this week.

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